User talk:GrogmarkMan

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Happy editing! I dream of horses (Contribs) Please notify me after replying off my talk page. Thank you. 21:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

A Barnstar for you

		The Railways Barnstar
		Thank you for your contribution to Athens railway station, it was noticed and very much appreciated! Take care --✠ Emperor of Byzantium ✠ (talk) 12:17, 10 January 2025 (UTC)

Acropolis/Akropoli metro station

Hello, If you can provide a reliable source for the station's name change on signage, that would help reduce confusion. Thanks in advance. --Minoa (talk) 19:38, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

Athens–Chalcis route

Hello, the source at did not specify that the Athens–Chalcis route became part of the Suburban Railway network in 2009. It only stated that test trains ran on the route, without specifying the outcome of the tests. The same article claimed that the Suburban Railway would reach Thebes in Autumn 2009, which did not happen.

As it stands, the Athens–Chalcis route only became part of the Suburban Railway network on 10 February 2014, although it is true that regular trains ran before then. The Ta Nea source can also be reused to claim that the extension of the Suburban Railway network to Chalcis and Thebes had been originally planned for completion in 2006. --Minoa (talk) 06:37, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Hello, thank you for the correction, I did misread the source you mentioned, thinking that it mentioned regular services had started. However, the sources at and do not mention that the Chalcis services started in 2014. They each say:

1. "Η γραμμή Πειραιάς-Χαλκίδα-Πειραιάς εξακολουθεί να εκτελεί τα προγραμματισμένα δρομολόγια ως έχουν. ("The Piraeus-Chalcis-Piraeus line continues operating its programmed schedules."),
2. "Έως το 2012, τα δρομολόγια εκτελούταν ανά μία ώρα από τις 06:00 έως τις 23:00 και έφταναν ως τον Πειραιά. Τα δρομολόγια της Χαλκίδας όμως, είχαν ως τερματικό σταθμό, το σταθμό Λαρίσης." ("Until 2012, schedules operated every hour from 6:00 to 23:00 and ran until Piraeus. The schedules to Chalcis however terminated at Larissa Station")

So the first one clearly says that the Chalcis services operated before 10 Feb. 2014, and the second one says (or at least, implies) they operated before 2012.

I found some more: This one also mentions the extension of Chalcis services to Piraeus in early 2012. Α comment by user "DESIRO EMU" on this one implies that by 25 October 2009 the services hadn't started yet (though this is obviously not a valid source by itself):

"Το 2006 ο προαστιακος θα ηταν Χαλκιδα και ουτε το 2010 δεν θα φτασει..." ("In 2006 Proastiakos was supposed to have reached Chalcis, and now it won't do so even in 2010...")

In addition, this makes no mention of services to Chalcis on December 10, 2010 (though that might be because they didn't change). This map, archived on 1 December 2010, does not mention anything, but this map, archived on 4 October 2011, does include a service to Chalcis, even if it's not labeled.

However, this source from February 2009 does clearly mention Athens-Oinoi-Athens services.

It's all confusing and unclear sadly. From all of this, I undersand that Athens-Oinoi services had started by February 2009 at the latest, however services were not extended to Chalcis until sometime in 2011, probably between January and October. As a personal anecdote, I remember taking the train to Chalcis around 2011/2012, but this too is obviously not a valid source.

What do you suggest we do?

PS: If you speak Greek, we can talk in Greek if you'd like. :) GrogmarkMan (talk) 09:50, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Hello, I have done my best to state in Line A3 (Athens Suburban Railway) that trains had been serving Chalcis since 8 March 1904, although I'm not sure if that is the Julian or Gregorian date. The 10 February 2014 date when TrainOSE started including the Athens/Piraeus–Chalics route in the Suburban Railway network comes from comparing the Wayback Machine snapshots from 8 February and 17 February 2014. I think the Athens–Oinoi route from February 2009 source was a regular TrainOSE service at the time that was affected by the track quadrupling works. --Minoa (talk) 13:28, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

Both of your links mention a "Piraeus-Chalcis" line. Also, if you click "Χάρτης δικτύου" ("Network map") on both, it includes the line and all stations until Chalcis. The only difference between those two links is that the latter (17 Feb) mentions the reintroduction of Athens-Ano Liosia services on 10 February.

Going back on Wayback Machine snapshots, you can find a direct mention of "Piraeus-Chalcis services" as early as 1 May 2012, and the 4 October 2011 map I mentioned also shows a line stopping at stations only served by Proastiakos, followed by "towards Chalcis". The February 2009 source I mentioned also mentions Chalcis services as having 4-number codes ("15XX"), also visible on 2012 timetables here, and which continue to be used to this day for that line. Only Suburban Railway services use 4-number codes, regular TrainOSE/Hellenic Train uses 3-number (regional) or 2-number (intercity) codes, for example services 520/521 (Athens-Lianokladi) or IC50/IC51 (Athens-Thessaloniki).

My opinion is the start date for full services is unclear (probably during 2011), while Athens-Oinoi services potentially began earlier, around 2009, but the line was in some kind of "transitional" stage until it was fully incorporated into Proastiakos in 2012. It was definitely earlier than 2014 though. GrogmarkMan (talk) 21:58, 11 September 2026 (UTC)

I think Greece used four-digit train codes before Proastiakos was introduced in 2004, and the May 2012 and October 2011 maps seem to portray the line towards Chalcis and Thessaloniki as a "connecting route" from SKA. I also know TrainOSE's tendency to be a bit too ambitious about future plans even in face of a major financial crisis, if the time taken to build the standard gauge line from Athens to Patras is any indication. --Minoa (talk) 00:50, 14 September 2026 (UTC)

It's true that during expansions, which services do and don't constitute Proastiakos services is very unclear (as evidenced by the fact that the Kiato-Aigio regional service was originally considered "line 5", despite being fully outside of the Athens metropolitan area). Do you know any sources or mentions about 4-digit numbers pre-2004? I can find certain mentions of schedule numbers with 1-3 digits in older, pre-modernization times (mostly through available documentaries/railfan videos on YouTube), but those are all concerning long-distance routes.

Also, the point you make about the 2011 map (connecting service?) is fair, however, given that the official site of Proastiakos mentioned the services to Chalcis (as opposed to the separate TrainOSE site), I think it's fair to assume that at least from 2012 the service was consιdered part of the network. Furthermore, this map (with an upload date of 29/08/2012) includes the full line until Chalcis, which clearly marks it as a Proastiakos service and not a connection (such as to Thessaloniki).

If you'd like, I propose to settle this by considering inauguration as "Mid-2012" (since we cannot find a more specific date), with a reference to the wayback snapshot of the Proastiakos site on 1 May, or the snapshot of the timetable from 22 May. We should follow this by a message on the talk page, inviting others to give a more precise if they can find a better source. GrogmarkMan (talk) 14:55, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

According to two timetables saved on 18 June 1997 (, ), the Athens–Chalkida and Larissa–Volos route (both stopping services) used 4-digit train numbers before the creation of the current Proastiakos network in 2004.

This page from 17 March 2012 may be a better source, pointing the date to 14 March 2012: however, the navigational header of the TrainOSE website seems to treat Athens–Chalkida separately from the Proastiakos network as late as Spring 2014 (compare this from 28 May 2014 with this from 25 June 2014).

Therefore, we are tied between 14 March 2012 and 10 February 2014. I think we should post a message on the talk page (as well as the Greek Wikipedia's Agora), inviting others to give a better date if they can find a better source. --Minoa (talk) 06:48, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

First of all, it's amazing you actually found digitized sources from that era! I did not think OSE would've made our job that easy. I agree that we should post it on the talk page, though I am unsure of how much traffic it will get, other than the few users who frequently edit these articles. In the interim, we should think of a neutral solution to use, until some kind of consensus is established.

Other than that, I should mention though that, while you're right about the headers on the 28 May and 25 June sources you linked, if you click the pdf "Χάρτης δικτύου" under "Attached files:", both show the vertical map with the full service to Chalkida, clearly marked as a Proastiakos service. The earliest snapshot of it on wayback is 26 April. Historically, TrainOSE has been rather slow/inconsistent with its website layout (even today, the new website layout of Hellenic Train has removed the name "Perifereiakes Grammes Thessalonikis", previously Proastiakos Thessalonikis), but it's much more careful and definitive with its maps (in part because they would be placed physically in stations). GrogmarkMan (talk) 11:05, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

I have updated the articles to 14 March 2012, noting that TrainOSE started promoting the Piraeus–Chalcis service as part of the Subruban Railway, with the service appearing on maps by the summer of that year. Side note: the notes in the timeline do not have to be italicised, I don't think that is in the English Wikipedia's manual of style (source). --Minoa (talk) 00:52, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Alright, I believe that's as much of an accurate date as we can find, thanks! GrogmarkMan (talk) 07:16, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

References

Greek National Roads

Hello, while I have done my best to incorporate your edits in National roads in Greece, some parts had to be removed for various reasons:

• The map at file:GR-National Roads Map.jpg has too many noticeable errors: for example, the EO99 only goes to Knossos, the EO53 does not end at Ormenio, and the EO16a does not end at Ierissos. I and OpenStreetMap recently did a review of the Greek National Road network and the result was far different from the map originally uploaded in 2013.
• In the "History" section, you repeated the part about the Hellenic Statistical Authority's 1998 list.
• The section about provincial roads is not relevant and best suited to Highways in Greece (the title may seem odd given some associate the term "highway" with controlled-access roads, but that is how it is titled here on the English Wikipedia for some reason).

I have been wanting to make a new corrected map using SVG, as well as a separate article on the provincial roads, but I have little time right now. If you can start a separate "Provincial roads in Greece" article for me, that would be great. --Minoa (talk) 03:56, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Hey again, thanks for correcting/improving my edits. I was under the impression the national roads map was accurate, given it is used in the Greek version of the article.

About the provincial roads, in my opinion it is more important to create a separate motorways article, rather than a provincial roads article. This is because provincial roads are unnumbered for information purposes (numbering only exists for statistical purposes and is completely absent in both everyday speech and official statements about the roads), and typically have little to no difference from other rural roads not considered provincial.

I am busy this week too, however I could start a new article by next week. GrogmarkMan (talk) 07:13, 18 September 2026 (UTC)