Talk:Winter solstice

What is the base reference for speed?

It is written: "The axial tilt of Earth and gyroscopic effects of its daily rotation mean that the two opposite points in the sky to which the Earth's axis of rotation points (axial precession) change very slowly (at the current rate it would take just under 26,000 years to make a complete circle)"

From a human life perspective, 26 000 years for a rotation seems slow, but from many other points of view it might appear as fast. Also I believe that this truth (one circle per 26 000) is true only currently. AFAIK we are not sure that this is immutable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kajaeshi (talk • contribs) 09:12, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Language

Implications of aspects of this article (the Sun moves along a path, the poles tilt different ways dependent on the hemisphere, Earth's axis changes its angle, the meaning of the word "solstice") engage cultural discussion and reinforcement, although they differ from scientific fact. Perhaps that interpretation was intentional. However, in an encyclopaedia does a definition need more robustness with "ecliptic", "precession", "declination", "equator", and "horizon"? Do we need to spend less time in definition, and more time in conveyance of facts, and ideas? The perception of the apparent movement of the Sun needs referencing to fact. The Sun doesn't stand still, because it doesn't move. The perception is a consequence of the orbit of the Earth as Earth rotates on its inclined axis. Galileo, Kepler, Copernicus, Newton, and Aristarchus of Samos managed to prove the motion of the Earth. We need to move on. Stonehenge stands as a witness : since time immemorial the Earth is in position to see the Sun over certain stones on certain dates. Don't we celebrate the return of Earth to its position like last year, and anticipate the position next year, rather than make vague gestures towards a sun-god? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Halteres (talk • contribs) 13:13, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 20:01, 9 October 2019 (UTC)

Split out culture

Possibly split this article into one detailing the astronomical event and one about the culture/festivities/anthropology ('Midwinter'), similar to Summer solstice and Midsummer. If you disagree, merge Summer solstice and Midsummer? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.158.90.245 (talk) 19:55, 29 November 2019 (UTC)

Add further history?

There's a great deal of historical information regarding the likes of solstice festivals being used as a basis for invasion or subjugation by cristianity, and it deserves (in my opinion) a little recognition here. A separate section detailing some of the attempts to criminalise traditional festivals, as well as later attempts to harmonise those same festivals (or similar) with existing christian celebrations could be worth noting - as well as links to such pages as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_paganism

However, I'm not sure what the reception will be like. Any mention of Christianity in such a light seems to attract extremely negative attention from some viewers, so how is this best presented? It is improper to minimise any of the harm done by the spread of christianity solely to appease a specific group, not in the least because it would be historically inaccurate, but at the same time I don't want to start any edit wars or force the page to be write-protected. What do? R0tekatze (talk) 15:36, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

To not merge, given that the meaning is not identical and that the Chinese cultural associations warrant separate coverage. Klbrain (talk) Klbrain (talk) 15:57, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

---

I propose merging Dongzhi (solar term) into Winter solstice. This is basically the same thing and is written in the same article in Chinese Wikipedia. -Miklcct (talk) 11:14, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

hard oppose as Dongzhi is a part of the Solar terms in Chinese astronomy, but honestly one solution could be combining the Dongzhi Festival and Dongzhi (solar term) 98.59.80.64 (talk) 01:05, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

The previous merge proposal was closed in 2015, but I don't accept the reasoning. The solar terms are defined as the exact moment rather than the period, according to the calendars and also by government sources, where the article is wrong. The division into 3 pentads refer to the period after the solstice.

In southern hemisphere, the solar terms as practised by overseas Chinese community are actually reversed

The 4 equinoxes / solstices are just 4 special cases of the 24 solar terms in general, therefore they should all be merged as well, which is the way Chinese Wikipedia is written. -Miklcct (talk) 11:31, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

• P.S. The term "winter solstice" is the commonly-accepted and officially endorsed English translation of the Chinese word 冬至, which is in Wikipedia as well. Therefore, according to WP:NAME, the article Dongzhi (solar term) shouldn't even exist. -Miklcct (talk) 18:57, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

References

• I lean oppose, as I think the topics are distinct enough for separate articles to make sense (one is about the winter solstice in general, whereas the other is about a specific East Asian solstice observance). The Dongzhi (solar term) article currently includes several paragraphs about how Dongzhi is celebrated in East Asia, and I worry this would be too much detail if merged into the Winter solstice article. Also, while Dongzhi is a solstice observance, it doesn't always fall on the same day as the astronomical winter solstice – in 2022, Dongzhi falls on 22 December but the astronomical solstice apparently falls on 21 December. If the concern is that the Dongzhi article is too short, it can be expanded with information translated from zh:冬至, which has extensive information about Dongzhi in Chinese history and culture. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 17:29, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
  • In 2022, Dongzhi actually falls on 22 December in the Eastern world. It is at 21:48 21 December UTC this year, which if UTC+08:00 is observed as in Macau (where it is a public holiday), is 22 December. It is actually defined by astronomical observance in modern (since Qing era) Chinese calendar (defined using Beijing time, similar systems are also used in e.g. Japan and Korea using their time zones instead so there may be one-day difference) -Miklcct (talk) 18:40, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
    • Thank you for clarifying that – I retract my point about the date of observance. —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 18:44, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Moreover, this article also specifies how winter solstice is celebrated in different cultures as well, as well as duplicating some information found in December solstice. If it's mainly the festive observance described, it should be separated into different articles describing each "festival" (keeping Dongzi intact in this case - that article should be moved according to WP:NAME), and just leave this page as a disambiguation page to June solstice and December solstice, like Vernal Equinox. -Miklcct (talk) 18:40, 6 January 2022 (UTC) -Miklcct (talk) 18:46, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
    • I think it's fine for Winter solstice to remain as an overview/broad-concept article discussing the winter solstice and summarizing celebrations in different cultures, while also having individual articles about different cultures' celebrations. I admit the overlap with the December solstice and June solstice articles feels a little uncomfortable, but if we convert this page to disambiguation as you suggest, where would we put the information about the cross-cultural significance/symbolism of the winter solstice? —Mx. Granger (talk · contribs) 19:11, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

One question is whether it should be merged into Winter solstice or December solstice. Do Chinese expatriates who live in the southern hemisphere celebrate it in December or June? Jc3s5h (talk) 19:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Longest/Shortest Night

The solstice(s) represent a moment in time. Due to various astronomical phenomenon, and what we call zulu time, the longest/shortest night can fall before or after the solstice. Depends on where one is on the planet of course. This can be fractions of seconds.

I'd like to see a chart that shows from what day to day the longest/shortest night is.

Pagans were fearful the days would continue to get shorter. It is presumptive to celebrate on the solstice day when the night to come, on certain years is to be shorter then the night before the solstice day. Philfromwaterbury (talk) 14:23, 6 November 2022 (UTC)

Equatorial Significance

There must be a band of area near the equator, equal to two times the angle of axial tilt of the Earth, whereby the named Winter and Summer Solstices are irrelevant. At the extreme, exactly on the equator, both Solstices would be equal, representing the coolest time of the year, and would occur twice. Within the band of area, the transition from one solstice to the other would simply change by varying degrees of cooler. Are there assigned names for these specific Solstices (maximums) that do not correspond accurately to the "Winter" and "Summer" naming convention? SquashEngineer (talk) 17:17, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Winter 2023 Solstice Time

The embedded table gives the Winter 2023 solstice time as "03:28". Two references are given, and the more reliable of the two gives the time as "03:27", as do most other credible sites. Could an established editor please fix the time? 2600:1008:A112:EAE7:C500:FEA4:786C:51FB (talk) 15:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I came here to say exactly this.

I will believe the Royal Observatory, Greenwich over Wikipedia.

https://www.rmg.co.uk/stories/topics/when-winter-solstice-shortest-day Madadhfan (talk) 22:20, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

Interestingly the French source given at the top of the winter solstice column agrees, having a time of 03:27:19. 03:37 is also given by source [1] at the top of the table. Source [2] at the top of the table, which appears to be an amateur website, gives 03:28. It is not the only difference.

What do you mean with “That Hemisphere” which one northern hemisphere or Southern Hemisphere

In the text first paragraph I think sentence 3 it says “that hemisphere , blah blah blah” which hemisphere do u mean northern or southern ,

i need this Information for my geographic teachers 2000 minimum word document and presentation with specific information about hemisphere, temperature and mostly about how space affects light from the sun to other parts of the universe 2607:FEA8:4E64:5F00:40E9:641F:1845:EE87 (talk) 19:51, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes I did read the whole paragraph and if I have to pay to ask this question I say I’ve already did donate about 100 dollars so please don’t make me confront my geography teacher persuading him to make me able to skip this. 2607:FEA8:4E64:5F00:40E9:641F:1845:EE87 (talk) 19:54, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

It also confuses me because at the very front of the paragraph it says winter solstice with northern hemisphere but you keep reading the same sentence you will reach a word saying hemispheres with parentheses beside it containing two highlighted blue words “northern and Southren” and right after that it says that hemisphere so is it north or south 2607:FEA8:4E64:5F00:40E9:641F:1845:EE87 (talk) 19:59, 25 December 2023 (UTC)

Dates of winter solstice

Hi, I added the fact that the solstice can and will also take place on 20 December (in 2080 and regularly after), which was quickly reverted saying "2080 hasn't arrived yet". But the page doesn't read to me as if it's a historic description of the dates the solstice has taken place (and in which case it took place on 23 December in 1903), it reads to me like it is saying the days the solstice can take place. And that will include 20 December from 2080. I think this is an interesting fact about the solstice that could do with being mentioned, in some way. Anyway, thanks for your time. Dracos (talk) 15:02, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

This isn't forecast to happen until 2080, so it's not accurate to say that 20 December is a current date of the winter solstice. I think December solstice would be a better place for that. This article is more about the winter solstice as a cultural event. – Asarlaí ^(talk) 16:36, 18 December 2025 (UTC)

Precise Instant

I read that the solstice will occur at 9:03 am in my local time. For the first time I’m wondering what that really means and how it’s determined. I found the text about observation a little confusing. I think it implies the sun stops in the sky for a moment. I’ll try to offer a suggested edit. In the meantime, if you can explain in plain language how the solstice can be observed please reply. Dw31415 (talk) 14:02, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

This is the part I found confusing The precise instant of the solstice cannot be directly detected (by definition, people cannot observe that an object has stopped moving until it is later observed that it has not moved further from the preceding spot, or that it has moved in the opposite direction). Dw31415 (talk) 14:04, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

The time of the winter solstice as commonly tabulated in astronomical ephemerides and websites is based on the moment when the apparent ecliptic longitude of the Sun, as seen from the center of the Earth, is exactly 270°. AstroLynx (talk) 14:20, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

This tidbit is very interesting:

https://bigthink.com/starts-with-a-bang/10-solstice-facts-everyone-know/#:~:text=Just%20800%20years,around%20the%20Sun. Dw31415 (talk) 14:23, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

“ Just 800 years ago, perihelion and the winter solstice aligned. Due to the precession of Earth’s orbit, they are slowly drifting apart, completing a full cycle every 21,000 years. Over time, the Earth drifts slightly farther from the Sun, the precession period increases, and the eccentricity varies as well. The most accurate measure of the “year,” as experienced by Earthlings, is to go from either equinox-to-equinox or solstice-to-solstice, but this does not correspond to a single 360 degree revolution of Earth around the Sun.” Dw31415 (talk) 14:24, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

From the same article: “ But over the course of a year, one path will be the longest and reach the highest point, while another path will be the shortest and reach the lowest maximum height above the horizon. These correspond to the solstices: winter and summer solstice, to be precise. The reason it’s called the solstice is because — for approximately a week on either side of the solstices — the apparent change in motion of the Sun is largely imperceptible. The Sun appears to “stand still,” and the word solstice comes from the Latin “sol” (for Sun) and the verb “stare” (to be fixed/rigid/unmoving).” Dw31415 (talk) 14:35, 21 December 2025 (UTC)

Observation

I added cn to this paragraph. I’m considering a small rewrite of this section to more closely align with http://news.nationalgeographic.com/2015/12/151221-winter-solstice-explained-pagans

In my opinion there’s a little too much about what an observer can’t see.

I’ll probably do a draft here. Dw31415 (talk) 13:23, 22 December 2025 (UTC)

:Observation

Ancient humans marked the winter solstice with various forms of instrumentation. Most simply this was done by setting a stone to mark the point on the horizon where the sun would rise furthest to the south. This technique would later be utilized in buildings like in Turkey or Ireland. Maeshowe and other tombs were constructed so that their chambers would be illuminated by the light of the solstice.

Other cultures would rely on natural pinpoint cameras that would project the sun onto a rock face (see Chaco Culture National Historical Park # Archaeoastronomy). The rock face was then carved to record the sun's annual journey through the sky. Other cultures would use a shadow stick and record the length of the shadow (see Chinese_astronomy#Solar_and_lunar_eclipses, Sundial#Nodus-based_sundials). The day of the solstice is difficult to detect because for a week on either side the change in the arc of the sun is almost imperceptible. Observers must be able to measure a change in azimuth or elevation less than or equal to about 1/60 of the angular diameter of the Sun. The word solstice comes from the Latin “sol” (for Sun) and the verb “stare” (to be fixed/rigid/unmoving).

With modern telescopes and satellites, the precise instant of the solstice can be calculated. There is a moment on the orbital path of the earth when the pole is pointing its furthest away from the sun. This moment does not usually correspond with the maximum distance from the sun. The solstice only aligns with apogee every 21,000 years. Dw31415 (talk) 14:23, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

I copied to Talk:Winter solstice/Sandbox for collaborative editing Dw31415 (talk) 14:41, 23 December 2025 (UTC)

I find it intriguing that more than for most other phenomena, people in the northern hemisphere tend to write about the winter solstice as if it ONLY happens in the northern hemisphere. Simple logic tells us that cannot be true. The sue of the word "south" alone in the above proposed ext obviously needs to be changed. HiLo48 (talk) 00:33, 24 December 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for mentioning. I was saving a north/south toward the end. It’s hard to make that not clunky. Dw31415 (talk) 03:30, 24 December 2025 (UTC)