Talk:The Beehive

Proposal to rename

Please see Talk:The Beehive for my proposal to rename this page and a couple of related ones. -- FP 06:53, Mar 6, 2005 (UTC)

flags

mmm I wonder why the flags in the beehive photos are at half-mast? Brian | (Talk) 07:27, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

The photograph was taken shortly after the death of Pope John Paul II -- FirstPrinciples 03:44, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Image problem

The lower picture on the left is covering some text, I'll try to fix it but I'm not a WikiMaster. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.72.139 (talk) 07:28, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Okay, fixed. That was easier than I thought. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.173.72.139 (talk) 07:44, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Is there any particular reason for The Beehive to redirect here instead of (say) to Beehive Cluster or Beehive (hairstyle), or perhaps Beehive (disambiguation)?208.98.149.212 (talk) 21:01, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 30 September 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) -- Calidum 19:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

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Beehive (New Zealand) → The Beehive (New Zealand) – I have never heard The Beehive referred to as Beehive. Even the article opens with The Beehive. Parliament's website calls it The Beehive and it's most commonly referred to as The Beehive from what I've seen scrolling through the sources on this page. 101.98.135.42 (talk) 09:25, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

https://www.parliament.nz/en/visit-and-learn/history-and-buildings/buildings-and-grounds/

• Comment. I'm assuming they have actual beehives in New Zealand, so the disambiguator should actually be something like "New Zealand Parliament". -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:08, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I can confirm this is true. 101.98.135.42 (talk) 22:42, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

• Support without amendment - anyone even remotely familiar with New Zealand government and politics would understand that "The Beehive" relates to the New Zealand government precinct, not actual beehives. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 11:41, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:THE, starting an article title with the definite article is generally discouraged. This is no different than "The White House". Rreagan007 (talk) 16:42, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Ah but in WP:THE they say "If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article, the word with article can be used as the name of a Wikipedia article about that meaning, and the word without article can be used as the name of a separate Wikipedia article." Beehive New Zealand has different meaning to The Beehive New Zealand. I consider this move to be in line with WP:THE. Also there is a sort of popuar honey brand in New Zealand called Beehive 101.98.135.42 (talk) 22:44, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

I think you're misinterpreting that. What that means is that The Beehive can theoretically be a different article than Beehive. But nobody has proposed moving this article to "The Beehive". But since "The Beehive" already redirects here, perhaps the disambiguator could be dropped. But as long as the disambiguator is in the title, the article should not have the definite article in it. Rreagan007 (talk) 00:14, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Rename to Beehive (New Zealand Parliament). Otherwise the article would seem to be about a particular type of beehive found in New Zealand. Most of us are not "even remotely familiar with New Zealand government and politics"! But even if we were this would be the case. WP:THE applies. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:03, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Necrothesp: "If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article, the word with article can be used as the name of a Wikipedia article about that meaning, and the word without article can be used as the name of a separate Wikipedia article." 101.98.135.42 (talk) 00:42, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:THE and there is nothing wrong with the current dab. No reason to change anything. Schwede66 23:04, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Schwede66: "If a word with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same word without the article, the word with article can be used as the name of a Wikipedia article about that meaning, and the word without article can be used as the name of a separate Wikipedia article." 101.98.135.42 (talk) 00:42, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. Same what you said above. Schwede66 08:40, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose because the isn't commonly used in article titles, and besides, I could cite many examples of "Beehive" being used without the definite article, usually as an adjective. E.g. "videos Ardern from her Beehive office" --Hazhk (talk) 10:42, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose because if the definite article was added it would not need a disambiguator in parentheses – in other words, if the definite article was added, The Beehive would be fine, and such a renaming would be simply a reversal of the current redirect. My opposition is not because of WP:THE. While definite and indefinite articles are most commonly omitted, the sentence from WP:THE quoted above does allow (but not require) the use of the definite article. The counterpoint to the "White House" example is (geographically) just 3 km away across the Potomac at "The Pentagon". So I say reject this proposal, but if someone wants to make a fresh proposal to rename to "The Beehive", go ahead and we can debate the merits of that. Nurg (talk) 09:33, 5 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Expansion

Architectual historian Jessica Halliday wrote her PhD thesis about the Beehive: Function follows form : Sir Basil Spence and the design and construction of 'the Beehive,' the Executive Wing of the New Zealand Parliament (Q111467229). That's worth adding to the article, Wainuiomartian. As I'm friends with Jessica, I couldn't do it. The backstory is interesting and some of it may well be in the public domain. The Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet instructed that the thesis be embargoed (i.e. you cannot even get to a hardcopy in the university library). Jessica was rather annoyed by that, so she told me. The January 6 United States Capitol attack changed her mind, though, and she can now see that the embargo was necessary to keep people inside the building safe. Schwede66 06:33, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

@Schwede66 interesting! Wainuiomartian (talk) 09:09, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

Requested move 25 June 2026

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus for the building in New Zealand generally being referred to as "The Beehive", not just "Beehive", and that it is WP:PTOPIC for "The Beehive". (closed by non-admin page mover) –Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 18:51, 9 July 2026 (UTC)

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Beehive (New Zealand) → The Beehive – its almost always referred to with 'the', and its a more natural language disambiguate than "(New Zealand)". In my mind its similar to The Beatles or more fittingly The Pentagon, it would be weird to me if the latter was at Pentagon (United States) TheLoyalOrder (talk) 09:41, 25 June 2026 (UTC) — Relisting. –Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 11:48, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

Support. Either 'The Beehive', or 'The Beehive (New Zealand)' would sound more natural. Wainuiomartian (talk) 18:11, 25 June 2026 (UTC)

Support per WP:THE, which states in part that a definite article should be used if a term with a definite article has a different meaning with respect to the same term without the article. In New Zealand, Beehive still typically refers to either a beehive, a brand of matches, or a brand of cured meats. The question then becomes whether this is the WP:PRIMARY use of the term "The Beehive", which based on page views seems pretty unequivocal. Turnagra (talk) 08:41, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

It has been a redirect here since 2008, so it seems there is a long consensus that it is the primary topic for the term. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:52, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

Support. Don't see any reason to oppose from a style point of view. As Turnagra has said the question is now whether this is the primary topic. There are the articles The Beehive, Marylebone, The Beehive (Alberta), and The Beehive, Welwyn Garden City, two of which get under 100 page views per month and one of which gets under 300. The NZ article gets over 2,000 per month so it's clearly the primary topic. Also, since 2008 The Beehive has been a redirect to the NZ article. Panamitsu (talk) 12:23, 26 June 2026 (UTC)

• Weak oppose the redirect originally went to Beehive Cluster which has more views and maybe more long-term significance so maybe "The Beehive" should go to the DAB and if needed move to The Beehive (New Zealand). Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:16, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

  is the Beehive Cluster frequently called just "the Beehive"? TheLoyalOrder (talk) 20:38, 28 June 2026 (UTC)

Oppose. Too small a detail. While the NZ parliament building has a strong claim, too many readers will know nothing of it and will presume it is something else. Astonishment is to be avoided. Too-short titles benefit no reader. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:48, 1 July 2026 (UTC)

The_Beehive should redirect to Beehive (disambiguation), where multiple local PrimaryTopic “The Beehive”s are listed. SmokeyJoe (talk) 12:53, 1 July 2026 (UTC)

The examples in WP:SMALLDETAILS include literally a single capitalisation or the use of a diacritic, I don't think there's such a thing as too small a detail. Turnagra (talk) 06:16, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

A preceding article (“The”) is too small because other topics, in areas where knowledge of the NZ parliament building can’t be assumed, are listed on the disambiguation page. SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:31, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Heads-up to further participants to evaluate both WP:PTOPIC and "Beehive" vs "The Beehive" (regardless of whether or not it gets disambiguated). –Maltazarian ^{ᚾparley$\lor$investigateᛅ} 11:48, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

Read Beehive (disambiguation) for the six other instances of “the beehive”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:02, 2 July 2026 (UTC)

Which, even with all of their page views combined, don't come close to half of the page views for this one. Turnagra (talk) 21:22, 3 July 2026 (UTC)

What do their combined pageviews come to? Is “half” the PT threshold? Or is it 90%?

I thought regional isolation was important. Within NZ the PT is strong, but for readers outside NZ, this PT decision might be astonishing.

When titles err on being too short, they hurt some readers, and help no readers. SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:04, 3 July 2026 (UTC)

AI tells me

"The Beehive" primarily refers to a classic 1960s hairstyle characterized by back-combed hair piled high on the head.

- SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:40, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

I don't think we should be guided by what AI says. In New Zealand, "The Beehive" will more often refer to Parliament than a hairdo. Wainuiomartian (talk) 19:00, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

There is no doubt, that in NZ, “The Beehive” should be assumed to refer to the NZ parliament building. Internationally? SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:26, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

A google image search gives me ~55% images of the NZ building. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:41, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

The first google scholar hit with capitals T and B is https://www.jstor.org/stable/25508716, “The Beehive Quern in Ireland”, 1977.

I think the pageviews and ghits derive from tourism interest, and that is not the purpose of Wikipedia.

I support “The Beehive (New Zealand)”. “The” is justified and helpful. This will be the perfect title for anyone wanting this page, and the perfect title for anyone not wanting this page but some other “The Beehive”. SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:47, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

> I think the pageviews and ghits derive from tourism interest, and that is not the purpose of Wikipedia.

Wikipedia is agnostic to the reasons why things are the primary topic of some term TheLoyalOrder (talk) 04:11, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia seeks to be a great encyclopedia, and an encyclopedia is a scholarly work. While it is great that Wikipedia serves widely, Wikipedia should not compromise scholarly concerns to blindly serve ghits. SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:44, 4 July 2026 (UTC)

SmokeyJoe, you have now commented nine times, which is about seven times too many. As WP:BLUDGEON explains, this can be seen as disruptive, for which you can get blocked. Schwede66 06:15, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

That’s rather harsh and blunt. Obviously, I don’t agree. I think I have raised only sensible points that advance the discussion.

Also, I don’t think I am being combative, but that this is a very interesting borderline case.

Do you assert that my points are not worth answering? SmokeyJoe (talk) 07:28, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

• Support. Halbared (talk) 08:49, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

Support as a natural disambiguation. Note there is precedent in regards to disambiguation and regional prominence; in many countries Java (programming language) is arguably more well-known than Java yet the latter is still the primary topic. Mir Novov (contribs | talk) 10:47, 5 July 2026 (UTC)

• Support the redirect that has been here since 2008 clearly shows a consensus that this is the primary topic for The Beehive. The other topics get less views and are of less significance than the house of the executive wing. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2026 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.