Talk:Novgorod Republic

Knyazs and posadniks

From http://www.genealogia.ru/ru/lib/catalog/rulers/3.htm . mikka (t)

Новгородская феодальная республика (Х в. - 1478).

Новгородская, Ленинградская, Архангельская, север Тверской обл., республики

Коми и Карелия.

Столица Новгород (Господин Великий Новгород).

1) Князья, назначаемые из Киева (ок. 970 - 1136).

1. Владимир Святославич Святой (970 - 78, 980, потом в Киеве).

2. Ярослав Владимирович (ок. 995 - 1019, потом в Киеве).

3. Вышеслав Владимирович (ок. 980 - 995).

4. Илья Ярославич (1019 - 21).

5. Брячислав Изяславич полоцкий (1021 - 36).

6. Владимир Ярославич (1036 - 52).

7. Изяслав Ярославич (1052 - 54, потом в Киеве).

8. Глеб Святославич тмутараканский (1054 - 78)*

9. Святополк Изяславич (1078 - 87, потом в Турове).

10. Мстислав Владимирович (1087 - 95, потом в Ростове)(1096 - 1113)(1114 - 16).

11. Давыд Святославич (1095 - 96, потом в Муроме).

12. Святослав Владимирович (1113 - 14).

13. Всеволод-Гавриил Мстиславич (1116 - 32)(1132 - 36).

2) Князья, избираемые новгородским вече (1136 - 1478).

14. Святослав Ольгович рыльский (1136 - 38, потом в Новгороде-Северском)(1139 - 41).

15. Ростислав Юрьевич суздальский (1138 - 39)(1141 - 42).

16. Всеволод Ольгович черниговский (1139).

17. Святополк Мстиславич полоцкий (1142 - 48).

18. Ярослав Изяславич киевский (1148 - 54).

19. Ростислав Мстиславич смоленский (1154).

20. Давыд Ростиславич смоленский (1154).

21. Мстислав Юрьевич суздальский (1154 - 57).

22. Святослав Ростиславич киевский (1157 - 60)(1161 - 68).

23. Мстислав Ростиславич суздальский (1160 - 61)(1175 - 76)(1177 - 78).

24. Роман Мстиславич волынский (1168 - 69).:

25. Рюрик Ростиславич киевский (1169 - 72).

26. Юрий Андреевич суздальский (1172 - 75).

27. Ярослав Мстиславич суздальский (1176 - 77).

28. Ярополк Ростиславич суздальский (1178).

29. Роман Ростиславич смоленский (1178 - 79).

30. Мстислав Ростиславич смоленский (1179 - 80).:

31. Владимир Святославич киевский (1180 - 81).

32. Ярослав Владимирович волынский (1181 - 82)(1187 - 96)(1197 - 99).

33. Мстислав Давыдович смоленский (1182 - 87).

34. Ярополк Ярославич черниговский (1196 - 97).

35. Святослав Всеволодович суздальский (1204 - 08).

36. Константин Всеволодович суздальский (1204 - 08).

37. Мстислав Мстиславич Удатный торопецкий (1210 - 14)(1216 - 17).

38. Ярослав Всеволодович переяславский (1214 - 16)(1225 - 28)(1230 - 36)*

39. Святослав Мстиславич смоленский (1217 - 19).

40. Всеволод Мстиславич смоленский (1219 - 21).

41. Всеволод Юрьевич суздальский (1221)(1223 - 24).

42. Ярослав Юрьевич суздальский (1221 - 23).

43. Михаил Всеволодович черниговский (1224 - 25)(1229)*

44. Федор Ярославич суздальский (форм. 1228 - 29).

45. Ростислав Михайлович черниговский (1229 - 30).

46. Александр Ярославич Невский переяславский (форм. 1228 - 29)(1236 - 40)

(1241 - 52).

47. Андрей Ярославич владимировский (1240 - 41).

48. Василий Александрович суздальский (1252 - 55)(1256 - 58).

49. Ярослав Ярославич тверской (1255 - 56)(1264 - 71).

50. Дмитрий Александрович суздальский (1258 - 64)(1271 - 73)(1275 - 81)(1283 - 94).

51. Василий Ярославич костромской (1273 - 76).

52. Андрей Александрович городецкий (1281 - 83)(1294 - 1304).

Борис Андреевич (наместник 1294 - 1304).

53. Михаил Ярославич тверской (1304 - 14)(1315 - 18).

54. Афанасий Данилович (1315).

55. Юрий Данилович московский (1318 - 22)*

56. Дмитрий Михайлович тверской (1322 - 25)*

57. Александр Михайлович тверской (1326 - 27)*

1328 - 1359 московские князья.

58. Дмитрий Константинович суздальский (1359 - 62).

1362 - 1478 московские князья.

3) Московские служилые князья-наместники (1403 - 78).

Юрий Святославич смоленский (1403 - 07)*

Семен-Лугвень Ольгердович литовский (1407 - 13).

Константин Дмитриевич (1413 - 25).

Юрий Семенович литовский (1432 - 40)(1446 - 47).

Иван Владимирович литовский (1444 - 46).

Александр Васильевич Чарторыйский (1447 - 55).

Василий Васильевич Шуйский-Гребенка (1455 - 71)(1472 - 78).

Михаил Олелькович (1471 - 72).

С 1478 московские воеводы.

1611 - 1617 шведская оккупация.

Карл-Филипп, сын Карла IХ шведского (форм. великий князь Новгорода 1611 - 17).

4) Посадники (ок. 950 - 1478).

Первоначально посадники избирались пожизненно, потом на два года.

С 1286 г. установлено коллективное посадничество представителей концов (районов)

Новгорода, из которых на год избирался степенной (главный) посадник.

Добрыня (киевский наместник ок. 980 - 990).

Воробей Стоянович (ок. 995).

Коснятин (Константин) Добрыньевич (ок. 1016 - 16/19).

Остромир (Иосиф)(ок. 1050 - 1054/58)

ок. 1058 - 1100 Завид, Петрята, Коснятин, Миронег, Савва, Улеб, Гюрята,

Микула (Никола).

Добрыня (ок. 1110 - 1117).

Дмитр Завидич (1117 - 18).

Коснятин Моисеевич (1118 - 19)(1125 - 26).

Борис (1120 - 25).

Мирослав Гюрятинич (1126 - 28)(1134 - 35).

Завид (Давид) Дмитрович (1128).

Данила (1129 - 31).

Петрила Микульчич (1131 - 32)*

Иванко Павлович (1132 - 34)*

Коснятин Микульчич (1135 - 36)(1146 - 47).

Якун Мирославич (1137 - 41)(1157 - 60)(1168 - 70).

Судила Иванкович (1141 - 44)(1147- 57).

Нежата Твердятич (1144 - 46)(1160 - 61).

Захария (1161 - 67)*

Якун Андреевич (1167 - 68).

Жирослав (1170 - 71)(1171 - 72)(1175).

Иванко Захарьинич (1171)(1172 - 75)(1184 - 86).

Завид Неревинич (1175 - 76)(1177 - 80).

Михалко Степанович (1176 - 77)(1180 - 84)(1186 - 89)(1204 - 05).:

Мирошка Нездинич (1189 - 1204).

Дмитр Мирошкинич (1205 - 07)*

Твердислав Михалкович (1207 - 11)(1213 - 15)(1216 - 19)(1219 - 20).

Дмитр Якунич (1211 - 12/13).

Юрий Иванкович (1215 - 16).

Семен Борисович (1219)*

Иванко Дмитрович (1220 - 29).

Внезд Водовик (1229 - 30).

Степан Твердиславич (1230 - 43).

Збыслав Якунович (1243 - 50).

Онания Феофилактович (ок. 1250 - 55).

Михалко Степанович (1255 - 58)*

Михаил Федорович (1258 - 68)*

Павша Онаньинич (1268 - 72)(1272 - 73).

Михаил Мишинич (1272)(1273 - 80).

Семен Михайлович (1280 - 86).

Андрей Климович (1286 - 91)(1294 - 95)(1295 - 97)(1299 - 1300)(1301 - 02)(1303 - 04)*

Юрий Мишинич (1291 - 92)(1297 - 98)(1304 - 05).

Семен Климович (1292 - 94)(1298 - 99)(1300 - 01)(1302 - 03)(1312 - 15)(1316 - 17).

Семен Иванович (1298/9 - 1300).

Михаил Павшинич (1310 - 12)*

Варфоломей Юрьевич (1323 - 24)(1331 - 32).

Данила (1327 - 28).

Федор Ахмыл (1329 - 30)(1332).

Захария Михайлович (1332).

Матвей Вафоломеевич Коска (1332 - 33)(1345 - 46).

Федор (Ахмыл ?) (1334 - 35).

Федор Данилович (1335 - 36)(1338 - 39)(1342 - 43)(1348 - 49)(1350).

Остафий Дворянинец (1340 - 41)(1344 - 45)(1347 - 48)*

Оницифор Лукич (1347/48)(1350 - 51)(1353 - 54).

Александр Дворянинцев (1346 - 47)(1354).

Федор Юрьевич (1349 - 50).

Ондреян Захарьинич (1359 - 60).

1360 - 70 неизвестные посадники.

Иван Семенович (1370 - 71).

Юрий Иванович (1371 - 72)(1373 - 74)(1374 - 75).

Михаил Данилович (1372 - 73).

Василий Иванович (1385).

Андреян Захарьинич (1390 - 91).

Есиф Захарьинич (1391 - 92).

Сильвестр Леонтьевич (1392 - 93).

Григорий Якунов (1393 - 94).

Федор Тимофеевич (1394 - 95).

Богдан Обакунович (1395 - 96).

Григорий Богданович (1396 - 97).

Тимофей Юрьевич (1397 - 98).

Александр Фоминич (1398 - 99).

Есиф Фалалеевич (1399 - 1400).

Юрий Дмитриевич (1400 - 01).

Иван Александрович (1401 - 02).

Фома Иванович (1402 - 03).

Кирилл Андреянович (1403 - 04).

Фома Есифович (1404 - 05).

Кирилл Дмитриевич (1405 - 06).

Иван Данилович (1406 - 07).

Андрей Иванович (1407 - 08).

Иван Богданович (1408 - 09).

Борис Васильевич (1415 - 16).

Семен Васильевич (1416 - 17).

Василий Есифович (1417 - 18).

Иван Богданович (1418 - 19).

Александр Игнатьевич (1419 - 20).

Василий Микитинич (1420 - 21).

Михаил Иванович (1421)(1424 - 25)

Тимофей Васильевич (1421 - 22).

Михаил Ананьич (1423 - 24).

1424 - 34 неизвестные посадники.

Самсон Иванович (1434).

Григорий Кириллович Посахно (1434 - 35)(1436).

Борис Юрьевич (1435 - 36)(1436).

Федор Данилович (1435).

Иван Васильевич (1436 - 37).

Федор Олисеевич (1437)(1441 - 42).

Дмитрий Васильевич (1437 - 38)(1450 - 51).

Иван Лукинич Щока (1438)(1455 - 56)(1456).

Исаак Андреевич Борецкий (1438 - 39)(1453 - 54).

Федор Яковлевич (1439).

Богдан Микитинич (1439 - 40).

Есиф Андреевич (1440).

Есиф Григорьевич Посахно (1440 - 41)(1447 - 48).

Есиф Яковлевич (1441).

Анания Семенович (1442).

Иван Максимович (1442 - 43).

Иван Лаврентьевич (1443)(1461).

Богдан Есифович (1443 - 44).

Захария Григорьевич (1444).

Василий Степанович (1444 - 45).

Михаил Иванович (1445).

Василий Сокира (1447).

Афанасий Остафьевич Груз (1448)(1461)(1466).

Дмитрий Васильевич Глухов (1450).

Иван Лукинич Щока (1455 - 56)(1456).

Михаил Иванович Туча (1456 - 57).

Алексей Васильевич Казимир (1459 - 60).

Василий Александрович (1460).

Иван Лаврентьевич (1461).

Яков Алексеевич Короб (1460 - 61).

Иван Немир (1461 - 62).

Василий Глазоемцев (1462).

Кузьма Григорьевич (1462 - 63).

Михайло Семенов (1463).

Александр Самсонов (1463 - 64).

Федор Самсонов (1464).

Афанасий Остафьевич (1466).

Дмитрий Исаакович Борецкий (1470 - 71)*

Тимофей Остафьевич (1471).

Марфа Борецкая (Посадница) (фактически 1470 - 78).

Василий Ананьич Голенище (1471)(1475).

Михаил Семенович (1474 - 75).

Фома Андреевич Курятник (1475 - 76)(1477 - 78).

Василий Александрович Казимир (1476 - 77)(факт. 1478).

Захар Овинов (1477)*

1478 присоединение к Московскому государству.

Lithuanian princes

Gorsky and a few other others like Paul have stated that the grand princes of Vladimir controlled the Novgorodian throne after Alexander Nevsky (until the end of independence) and that the Lithuanian princes were only invited and "fed" (under the system of kormlenie). There is ru:Список служилых литовских князей в Новгороде where they are listed as service princes. Is it fair to write this in wikivoice? Mellk (talk) 06:22, 17 September 2025 (UTC)

@Mellk, I suppose you've fixed it already? I don't know this topic well enough and it's quite confusing. The list here includes princes who were definitely not the Grand Princes of Vladimir, like Andrey of Gorodets or Lengvenis. WDYT? Alaexis_¿question? 17:20, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

I took a look at the entry for Лугвений Ольгердович in Славянская энциклопедия. Киевская Русь — Московия (vol. 1) and it says he was only the appanage prince of Mstislavl. In regards to his time at Novgorod, it only says: "Как искусный полководец был приглашен новгородцами на княжение в их главных городах (Старая Русса и Ладога) и провел там 5 лет." (p. 673). He is also listed as a service prince in ru:Список служилых литовских князей в Новгороде.

Andrey of Gorodets was the grand prince during the time he was prince of Novgorod IIRC. Mellk (talk) 17:47, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

@Alaexis: I took a look at The Formation of the Great Russian State (1970) by Presnyakov since there is hardly any mention of him in English-language sources and here are some relevant passages:

• "In 1388 Prince Olgerd's son Lugven sent envoys to Novgorod with his claim to the dependent towns ruled by Narimont [...] Although the city had received him from the hand of Jagiello, Lugven never actually sat on Novgorod's throne. In his oath of allegiance to Jagiello in 1389 [...] Lugven calls himself 'guardian of the boyars and people of Great Novgorod' under Jagiello's command, and promises Jagiello and his queen, Jadviga, that 'together with the people of Novgorod' he will remain loyal to them and to the Polish crown, as long as he shall 'have the people of Novgorod under his guardianship.' [...] At this point, however, Olgerd's son Dmitri occupied Briansk and laid aside his oath to Dmitri of Moscow, and it happened that Lugven was not able to separate Novgorod from Great Russian rule. His arrival in Novgorod was evidently connected in some way with the breakdown of relations between Novgorod and Moscow, and occurred at a time when the Russian grand prince had no deputy in the city." (p. 278).
• "Just how far the Lithuanian grand principality was from being a well-defined national and international power is evident from the fact that Prince Lugven returned to Novgorod in 1407 to occupy the same dependent towns that had been his before and until 1412 retained them under his own rule and that of his deputies [...] Novgorod's willingness to provision Lugven did not mean that Lugven had turned against Vitovt, nor was it regarded as a violation of Novgorod's 'settlement' with Vasili." (pp. 286-287).

Mellk (talk) 18:08, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Interesting! Looks like the Princes article should be amended. Alaexis_¿question? 18:52, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Great Perm

There does not seem to be any mention of this in the main text (I will take a look at where we can mention this), but it does not make sense to include Great Perm as a successor in the infobox, in my opinion. Although Great Perm was claimed as a possession by Novgorod and is mentioned as having paid tribute, it was only formally dependent on Novgorod (as Novgorod never exercised any real political control) and so we cannot say it ever separated from Novgorod. If we refer to 1471, when Novgorod gave up its rights, then Great Perm only became formally dependent on Moscow, but it was not annexed until a bit later. Mellk (talk) 14:36, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

Makes sense. Alaexis_¿question? 17:20, 6 February 2026 (UTC)

The infobox labeling the state as a republic is misleading

Novgorod never called itself the "Novgorod Republic", it seems like the state and its inhabitants just referred to it as Novgorod, or sometimes "Novgorod the Great." I also believe calling it a "mixed republic" is incorrect, it seems to have more been a type of elective monarchy, with its princes chosen by the Veche. I made some edits earlier and they were reverted, the person who reversed my edits made fair points. Anyone have any suggestions on how best to change the page? I believe "Novgorod Republic" in the infobox should be changed to just Novgorod or Novgorod the Great. Not sure what to change the government type to, I admit my edit of labeling it a "elective constitutional monarchy" probably doesn't work. Edidor123 (talk) 05:53, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

We go by what the sources call it, not what we think it should be called. To get consensus for a change like that, you have to build your argument with reliable sources. Present your arguments here and see what other editors have to add. Masterhatch (talk) 11:07, 4 March 2026 (UTC)

City state or aristocratic republic

City state or aristocratic republic in the short description. @Janusliti: and @VytautasAlelkaitis: This article is about the place, not the type of government that ran the place, hence "city state" is correct for the SD. It matches the lead and suits the body. Please discuss here instead of reverting. The onus is on you to get consensus for a change like that. Thank you! Masterhatch (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2026 (UTC)

Michael Kort does say "Novgorod essentially was an aristocratic republic controlled by its veche, which selected the city's prince" (p. 23) but I think it is better to describe the form of government later in the lead rather than to overload the first sentence with such terms. The government section also mentions the different views about the form of government so per MOS:LEAD it is best if we avoid terms like "aristocratic republic" unless it can be shown that this specific term is widely applied to Novgorod. Mellk (talk) 13:13, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Any state is defined primarily by its form of government, not its settlement pattern. A "city-state" is not a clear-cut political classification (like, for example, a monarchy or a principality) because it is not just a “place”, it is a polity of a specific time. This article refers to Novgorod as an "aristocratic republic" several times. In the entire section on the form of government, it is clearly explained that power belonged to the "Council of Lords," the "boyars," and the "veche." This describes an aristocratic class in the literal sense. In both scholarly and popular sources on this topic, "aristocratic republic" is the established term for this state. It is also true for the Pskov Republic. Therefore, "aristocratic republic" is the only correct term to use in the lead section and the opening sentence.

https://www.sociostudies.org/almanac/articles/simple_bifactorial_model_of_structural_cycles_applied_to_russian_history/

https://vmuis.ru/smus/article/view/28574

https://brewminate.com/elements-of-medieval-russian-life-as-depicted-in-the-konigsberg-chronicle/

https://academia.edu/resource/work/45673730

https://www.medieval.eu/

unesco world heritage 2019-churches of the-pskov sehoot of arehitecture/ Janusliti (talk) 15:21, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

We can say that certain noble families dominated the political system (hence it has been called an oligarchy), but I still think this is something that should be explained later in the lead and not stated in wikivoice in the opening sentence.

The term "aristocratic republic" is not something that is widely applied to Novgorod. Sure, you have found some sources that use the term (and thank you for providing those, I'm sure we can use this somewhere), but even the term "republic" to describe Novgorod from 1136 to 1478 might be considered an oversimplification. I would suggest looking at some of the existing sources that discuss this (e.g. Fennell). Mellk (talk) 15:31, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

I should also add that this source says the following: "In conclusion, it should be noted that Novgorod's political system can be compared to that of the Pskov Republic. Other Russian principalities had different political systems and institutions. Consequently, Novgorod the Great was a unique principality, whose system of governance represents an example of medieval feudal democracy." Mellk (talk) 15:49, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

I don't understand that last part. It's as if it only confirms what I was saying. The ruling class of boyars were considered aristocrats because their status was built on hereditary nobility and generational landownership, not just temporary wealth, as if it was an oligarchy. In the historical context, boyars are defined as the feudal nobility and the traditional aristocracy of Eastern Europe. In many sources, the Novgorod Republic is described as aristocratic, and this is the most accurate term. Janusliti (talk) 16:05, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Oligarchy simply means a small group of people have power (whether they are wealthy or belong to the nobility). There are other medieval states that have been described as oligarchies (e.g. Italian city-states). Mellk (talk) 16:09, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Nope, according to Aristotle in Politics (Book III, Chapter 8), an oligarchy is defined by wealth, not by the number of rulers. As Aristotle states, "the real difference between democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth... wherever the rulers owe their power to their wealth, whether they be a minority or a majority, that is an oligarchy". Janusliti (talk) 16:19, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Sure, but we are using the modern English definition of "oligarchy". Mellk (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

it is even less suitable Janusliti (talk) 16:32, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Well, WP:AGEMATTERS for one. Mellk (talk) 16:48, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

I have cited sources that identify it as an aristocratic republic. If it was not that, then what was it? An oligarchy? I already addressed that above. A monarchy? No; the ruler was replaced by a council of nobles. A democracy? Clearly, power was not elected by the people's masses. That leaves only an aristocratic republic. Janusliti (talk) 16:15, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

The relevant policy is WP:NPOV. Mellk (talk) 16:21, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Why is this contradictory? Janusliti (talk) 16:27, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

See what the government section says regarding views of how Novgorod's political system has been described in the literature. Mellk (talk) 16:48, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

So? Janusliti (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

This article is hard to understand precisely because it fails to specify that it was an aristocratic republic. I made an edit that included a reference to a study, which made it much more readable Janusliti (talk) 17:08, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

If nobody else chimes in, then I would suggest WP:3O. I think we are going in circles here. Mellk (talk) 17:41, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

What form of government does this state have, in your view? Janusliti (talk) 17:45, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

Give me any argument as to why this state shouldn't be labeled an "aristocratic republic", because all historical evidence that I point here proves that it was a republic, ruled exclusively by the noble elite. Let's finish this Janusliti (talk) 18:06, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

My personal view is not really relevant here. We are supposed to summarize what the sources says per WP:NPOV. There are some sources that still refer to the government as being democratic in nature, although the tendency now is to call it an oligarchy. Mellk (talk) 11:44, 19 August 2026 (UTC)

The fact that it had aristocrats is mentioned multiple times throughout the text. Calling it an aristocratic republic is the neutral synthesis. Power was legally anchored in the formal organ, the Council of Lords. State had a hereditary noble class rather than a financial elite Janusliti (talk) 16:57, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

The development of republican institutions was a long process for one. Mellk (talk) 17:41, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

We aren't disputing the fact that it is a republic. Janusliti (talk) 17:52, 15 August 2026 (UTC)

No, but it is an oversimplification to say that it became a republic in 1136. See for example Fennell. Mellk (talk) 11:42, 19 August 2026 (UTC)