Talk:Mira Murati

Non "NPOV" removal of nationality

I’ve noticed that the nationality has been removed from the lead multiple times under the justification of “non-neutrality.” I fail to see how simply stating where a person is from constitutes propaganda. It has always been common practice to mention nationality in the lead, especially for figures in science and research. If we look at other articles about scientists and researchers: Albert Einstein, Marie Curie, Galileo Galilei, Johannes Kepler, Isaac Newton, Stephen Hawking, V. Gordon Childe, their nationality is consistently included.

In this case, it seems that the real non-neutral point of view comes from those who are uncomfortable with mentioning Mira Murati’s nationality. Ironically, this is being done under the guise of maintaining a neutral point of view (NPOV). If we are striving for consistency, the nationality should be reinstated in the lead, as it is standard across similar biographies. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 06:18, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Indeed, I have to agree RoyalHeritageAlb here. She is an Albanian national, and nationality is generally mentioned in the lede. I don't see any compelling reason why her nationality should not be mentioned in opening sentence. Khirurg (talk) 15:35, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

The examples of Einstein, Curie, et al. make a strong case for inclusion of Murati's birthplace somewhere in the lead (per MOS:FIRSTBIO#3 or MOS:NATIONALITY). This is perhaps only an opinion, but the fact that she was born in the "People's Socialist Republic of Albania" and is now where she is makes her accomplishment even more noteworthy (which may suggest that MOS:CONTEXTBIO is also relevant to this discussion). Do we know if she holds US or Canadian citizenship too? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:02, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

PS: The detailed information as included in the infobox (e.g., People's Socialist Republic of Albania) also seems appropriate as is. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 17:05, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for starting a discussion. I just saw the edit-warring and MOS:NATIONALITY. I assumed Murati is not an Albanian citizen. --Hipal (talk) 18:12, 5 March 2025 (UTC)

I think that still goes against the MOS:NATIONALITY guideline, which is pretty clear about it. She hasn't spent her career in Albania, but in the US, so we would probably have to say that she's American or perhaps "Albanian and American" if we want to indicate the nationality and follow the guideline. But her birth place is already mentioned in the infobox and in the first section anyway.

Alternatively, a middle-ground could be to replace "(born 16 December 1988)" with "(born 16 December 1988 in Albania)" in the first sentence. It's a little redundant, but at least it does not give the impression that she is currently living and working in Albania. Would that be satisfying? Alenoach (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2025 (UTC)

I think the methodology used in Marie Curie (Polish born, naturalised French) may be the most appropriate one. Im not really sure if Mira Murati is a naturalised US citizen but assuming yes i think its the better variant. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 19:27, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

but at least it does not give the impression that she is currently living and working in Albania. Would that be satisfying? No. I am not sure why we're suddenly creating rules I've never heard of. She's got Albanian citizenship. Either "Albanian and American" or RoyalHeritageAlb's proposal. Does she even have American citizenship? AlexBachmann (talk) 22:57, 9 March 2025 (UTC)

Agree. Until we have proof of Murati's nationality (or nationalities), all we are certain of is that she was born in the People's Socialist Republic of Albania – which makes her "Albanian born" (and unless she has renounced or otherwise lost her citizenship, presumably "Albanian"). The rest is speculation. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:28, 10 March 2025 (UTC)

So fellow editors, have we reached a consensus? At least as per @Hipal to not block our edits. As i understood @Khirurg agrees that the nationality should be mentioned in the lede as with other scientists, @Cl3phact0also agrees that Einstein's article example makes a strong case for inclusion of the nationality, @Hipal Itself confirmed that he mistakenly assumed that Murati was not an Albanian citizen which she is and there is no place for controversy, @Alenoach proposes that if she has dual nationality both should be mentioned "albanian and american" which means if someone agrees on "albanian and american" automaticaly agrees on mentioning "albanian" too if we dont know if she is also US national. I agreed again on adding the nationality as with the rest, or dual nationality as Marie Curie if we can confirm her dual nationalities. @AlexBachmann agrees with either "Albanian" or "Albanian-American". And finally @Cl3phact0 again agrees with the "Albanian" or "Albanian-American" depending on our ability to confirm the "American" part. Until then all what is known is the "Albanian" one. I am sorry for the tags but can we confirm our agreement so Hipal would not reverse it again claiming that there is no consensus in the TP despite the "5-factor verification"? RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 12:20, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

My preferred solution would be to either not mention it, or to replace "(born 16 December 1988)" with "(born 16 December 1988 in Albania)". But if the overall consensus is different, I won't insist. Alenoach (talk) 12:44, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Thanks for the thorough summary! As long as whatever we write is accurate and in keeping with standard practice, I'm not overly concerned either way. One stylistic observation that might be worth making here is that we now include a mention of her Albanian origins in: (1) Short Description; (2) Infobox; (3) Early life and education; not to mention six additional categories. That's a whole lot of "Albanians" for one small country. Given that the lead is currently two short sentences, adding another "Albanian" to it might be less of a priority than writing a more comprehensive summary of the article. (Same could be said for the date of birth, which, as is, one couldn't possibly ignore even if they wanted to.) -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 13:30, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Makes sense. I added a mention of her new company, but the lead could still be more detailed. Alenoach (talk) 13:47, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

@RoyalHeritageAlb: Please WP:FOC. The summaries are selective, and ignore policy entirely. I suggest you make clear proposals, including those already given by others, indicating the references that support them. --Hipal (talk) 17:04, 17 April 2025 (UTC)

Probably the approach on my latest comment came out differently in some another's point of view as i focused on the content proposition of each individual not on the individual itself, as our goal is to reach an consensus with the other editors about the content. I believe we have expressed our opinions on the content which overall are similiar and do not neccessarily dispute one-another's proposals. Still i would wait for another editor to make the final edit as per consensus reached in this TP to avoid any doubt of protagonism. RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 07:22, 18 April 2025 (UTC)

Were Albania to be a bigger country then the article would deserve more "Albanians"? 🤣 RoyalHeritageAlb (talk) 06:17, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

Photograph of Murati

Briefly, the article was graced with a fetching photograph of the subject. It appears that the source of the image was Facebook, however, there seems to be an issue with the way this was done. My expertise in this aspect of the project is limited, but I would hope that a way can be found to use the image (or a different one), either on Commons, or at the very least, locally. It may be as simple as asking the subject herself through one channel or another. Excellent advice about how to upload photographs can also be found at WP:PICYOU. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:45, 14 May 2025 (UTC)

@Alenoach: Please see discussions here and here about the use of {{Improve images}}. This initiative is a work in progress, so if we could continue displaying the template for a while still (maybe until after the summer), I would appreciate it. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 08:26, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

I left a suggestion on the template's talk page. Let's keep it for a few additional months, I restored it. Alenoach (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Thank you. Your taking the time to think about improving the initiative is also much appreciated. Will move discussion to Template talk for specifics. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 16:27, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

Create a separate page for Thinking Machines Lab

Given that the company has started fundraising (led by a16z) and is rapidly growing with high-profile team members (including John Schulman), I believe the company deserves its own Wikipedia page. If there's no objection, I'll create a separate for it. MixedPrecision (talk) 17:17, 21 May 2025 (UTC)

It likely meets the notability requirement for an article. Here is a guide to write your first article: Help:Your first article. One important concept is that a Wikipedia article must be a synthesis of what reliable sources say. Alenoach (talk) 04:14, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Alenoach! I've updated the draft for Thinking Machines Lab using reputable sources. I've requested the draft to be moved from Draft to Article, though I'm not sure what the next step is. Would appreciate your feedback!

Draft talk:Thinking Machines Lab MixedPrecision (talk) 04:24, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

The draft seems sufficiently good. I submitted it for review. There will likely be a few months before it is reviewed, though. I would have moved the draft directly to mainspace if there hadn't been an existing redirect page named Thinking Machines Lab, that points to the article on Mira Murati. Alenoach (talk) 05:02, 22 May 2025 (UTC)

I will try to do the AFC review today unless someone gets to it before I do (at first glance, I looks like a quick and easy review). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 10:08, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Thank you @Cl3phact0 and @Alenoach! MixedPrecision (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2025 (UTC)

Tried to accept the draft with AFCH tool just now, but the redirects are an obstacle. Expert help would be appreciated. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:54, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

The speedy deletion of the redirect page that you proposed via AFCH seems like the right procedure. Let's just wait for an admin to delete it, after that it will be possible to move the draft without admin permission. But I believe the admin will also perform the move, so we just have to wait. Alenoach (talk) 19:03, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Sounds like the straightest and best path to follow. I (briefly) considered overwriting the redirect page with the full wikitext of the draft, but the possible avalanche of unintended consequences quickly deterred that cognitive trespass. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 20:02, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

 Resolved -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 20:33, 27 May 2025 (UTC)

Albanian-American claim

We now have what seems to be a reliable source that identifies Murati as "Albanian-American" (see RTSH article Government Invests $10 Million in "Machine Thinking Lab" Led by Albanian-American Mira Murati). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:51, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

Looks like a warmed-over press release, biased towards such language because of the audience. --Hipal (talk) 16:59, 28 May 2025 (UTC)

I did not see your comment here prior making edits based on this source (and certainly did not intend to ignore your concerns). As we identify the source as national public broadcasting company of Albania, "Albanian-American" seemed like a basic fact that could be taken at face value. Additional sources would be welcome too. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:19, 19 June 2025 (UTC)

@Cfls: RTSH seems to be the Albanian equivalent of a BBC or PBS (see above). Do we need a better source in order to describe her as "Albanian-American"? It seems likely that they would have fact-checked this given the context. Also, articles for many of the people included here show Pearson College UWC or one of the other UWC constituent schools in the infobox "Alma mater" or "Education" field. Why not Murati? In the same vein, the Honorary Doctorate claim is supported by the institution itself (Dartmouth, in this case). Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:00, 24 June 2025 (UTC)

@Cfls and Hipal: If the RTSH source is good enough for a DYK Hook (see ALT1), it is surely good enough for this article too. Based on this, I am inclined to reinstate the "Albanian-American" claim. -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 05:19, 7 July 2025 (UTC)

 Implemented (The RTSH source gets us over the line, however if and when additional sources are available, the veracity of this claim could probably still be reinforced.) -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 11:34, 14 July 2025 (UTC)

Image request

I've removed the {{Improve images}} template from the top of the article as it's been there for several months without result. Notwithstanding this, the article would benefit from a photo of Murati if a suitable one could be found. Please see WP:PICYOU, WP:UPIMAGE, and WP:IMGDD if you would like to help. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 09:28, 29 September 2025 (UTC)

Hi Cl3phact0. I don't think it's useful to have both the "Improve images" template at the top and the "Portrait needed" in the infobox. And at this point, since it has been nearly a year that the template is displayed at the top, it would probably even be worth removing both. Alenoach (talk) 16:49, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

Fair enough. Dropped the {{Improve images}} template back to the bottom. Wait and see if the infobox placeholder image gets anyone's attention (as this angle is a new one, let's give it a chance). -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 19:43, 28 February 2026 (UTC)

PS: You might also be interested in this discussion. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:36, 1 March 2026 (UTC)

This isn't really a new angle, though - it's one that was deprecated years ago. {{improve images}} would be the better option to keep, if we keep either. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:49, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

I've not been able to locate anything that says specifically that this angle is depreciated. Do you have any memory of where those discussions might be archived? -- Cl3phact0 (talk) 15:45, 2 March 2026 (UTC)

See the note at WP:UPPI. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2026 (UTC)

Interesting, though not exactly up to date. Please see discussion on Wikipedia talk:A picture of you as well. Cheers, Cl3phact0 (talk) 07:08, 3 March 2026 (UTC)