Talk:MF Doom

Please change the capitalization of his name to be all caps.

The reasoning in the FAQ is really dumb. "how DOOM chose to write his own name isn't as important to Wikipedia as how other sources write it". He himself is the most reliable source there is. You're going to value some other source's opinions more than his own words?

He made an entire song about how his name is spelled in all caps, called "All Caps". Even if it doesn't follow Wikipedia's style and guidelines, this change would be entirely harmless and it would make fans satisfied. Please just respect his legacy. Tylertcfan758 (talk) 12:36, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia has rules. This article is on Wikipedia. This article follows the rules of Wikipedia. Popcornfud (talk) 13:28, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

"Wikipedia has no firm rules" Wikipedia#Policies and content. Smirkjuice (talk) 05:42, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

@Popcornfud Annoying post. Beyond what @Smirkjuice pointed out, WP:IGNOREALLRULES, and the fact that the article title that you claim "follows the rules of Wikipedia" already has one word fully capitalized, where exactly in the rules are capitalization schemes for nicknames mentioned? I've seen plenty rendered with no caps, which violates english grammar conventions; I'm confident that this article's title falls exclusively under WP:COMMONNAME, and MF DOOM would appear to be the common name. Kaotao (talk) 08:44, 16 February 2025 (UTC)

Thank you, DOOM deserves respect. Musicmf (talk) 05:11, 11 March 2025 (UTC)

If you look at the sources, many of them have "MF Doom", and none of them have "Mf Doom". That is why Wikipedia capitalizes the first two letters. jlwoodwa (talk) 00:51, 6 April 2025 (UTC)

DOOM spells his name as MF DOOM in every single album he did throughout his career Cxuzush (talk) 03:58, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't care how he spelled it. See the FAQ. Popcornfud (talk) 15:13, 27 April 2025 (UTC)

@Popcornfud

Articles that have his name spelt as MF DOOM:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/mf-doom-madlib-madvillain-egon-1142507/

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/entertainment/music/estate-of-late-rapper-mf-doom-sues-temu-over-alleged-counterfeit-merchandise/ar-AA1Krh1U

https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/madvillain-madvillainy-demos/

https://www.vice.com/en/article/mf-doom-handwritten-notebooks-returned-widow-legal-battle/

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/kurious-mf-doom-rap-new-album-interview-1235113062/

https://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/mf-doom-mm-food-20th-anniversary-edition/

https://pitchfork.com/features/article/untangling-mf-dooms-lifelong-struggle-with-the-us-immigration-system/

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/madlib-mf-doom-madvillainy-accordion-sample-1234709391/

https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/10-songs-that-show-why-mfandnbspdoomandnbspwas-the-ultimate-rappers-rapper/ Veberet (talk) 18:31, 10 December 2025 (UTC)

it also pains me to see it written like this, but titlecase "Doom" is significantly more common according to Google Ngrams LGaps (talk) 22:03, 13 April 2026 (UTC)

i found an example of an article where the artist is stylized in all lowercase, but i guess all caps can't be? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bell_hooks ~2026-28483-13 (talk) 20:46, 11 May 2026 (UTC)

Additionally, MGMT, NSYNC, AC/DC, DMX, and ABBA are all caps in the titles, and many artists such as Kiss (Band), Knower, and Haim (band) all feature all caps names immediately after the initial name. Johnsonsmith12 (talk) 17:38, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

As someone who's been cleaning up some of the usage of all caps for the subject in other articles, I think it sounds reasonable to follow the style of those last 3 pages here, i.e. (stylized in all caps as MF DOOM or DOOM) though that should be the only time it's written that way in the article text. ᴸᵃᶠᶠʸTaffer💬(they/she) In solidarity 17:44, 4 June 2026 (UTC)

MGMT, AC/DC, DMX and ABBA are all either initialisms or acronyms and so should be capitalized per MOS:CAPSACRS. This doesn't apply to Doom.

I assume NSYNC is capitalized on Wikipedia because (unlike Doom) a substantial majority of reliable sources capitalize it, but I haven't checked. (Also keep in mind that just because something is done in XYZ article doesn't mean it's a good idea and should be done on every article too.) Popcornfud (talk) 12:42, 27 June 2026 (UTC)

Nope. DMX took his name after the Oberheim DMX drum machine. It's not an acronym. The "Dark Man X" thing was conferred to him by others years after he was already an established artist and X never referred to himself as that or even referenced it.

There is no good reason why DOOM shouldn't be capitalized, and the reasons given in the FAQ are entirely fallacious and unbacked by any evidence.

GodCipherDivine (talk) 03:45, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

"DMX" is psuedo-acronym, ie a series of letters pronounced individually even when those letters don't stand for anything, and it isn't written lowercase in the overwhelming majority sources. Therefore it's capitalized per MOS:CAPSACRS.

The reasons given in the FAQ are not "fallacious" (they are based in Wikipedia policy) or "unbacked by evidence" (there is a link to a review of how "Doom" is written in a sample of reliable sources). Popcornfud (talk) 04:52, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

"Wikipedia has its own manual of style, and does not write things in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS"

This is completely untrue.

"how Doom chose to write his own name isn't as important to Wikipedia as how other reliable sources write it"

According to who?

It isn't just "how DOOM chose to write his own name." It goes well beyond that. He literally put out a directive on it and how it should be written. He couldn't make it any clearer that it's supposed to be in all caps.

The link you provided hasn't been updated in over two years. And just because many publications report, spell, and stylize things incorrectly that doesn't make it any less incorrect. One doesn't automatically give credence to something just because it comes from a "reliable" source. GodCipherDivine (talk) 15:12, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

The policy you need to understand is MOS:ALLCAPS. The FAQ explains in plain language how this policy applies to this page. I can't explain it any better, and even if I could, something tells me you'd still be angry about it. Popcornfud (talk) 15:19, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

You didn't answer any of the points I raised, only referencing MOS:ALLCAPS when ironically nothing in there stipulates DOOM's name shouldn't be capitalized, and so you resort to ad hominems and accuse me of being angry. Well done.

GodCipherDivine (talk) 21:10, 28 August 2026 (UTC)

MOS:PERSONAL, MOS:NAMEFMT, and MOS:BIOEXCEPT are also relevant. jlwoodwa (talk) 05:05, 29 August 2026 (UTC)

Popcornfud, you have been arguing over this for at least 8 months now. and all of your arguments are wrong. Wikipedia does not have strict rules. Several guidelines directly go against all of your arguments, which you just blatantly ignore. Smirkjuice (talk) 08:38, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

What's the role of consensus then? So far I've seen dozens of people in favor of spelling his name that way. UltraCobson (talk) 00:14, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

Who even gets to decide whether or not his name should be spelled in all caps? If it's "consensus", then I have to say an overwhelming consensus is in favor of changing the title of this article to all caps and spelling DOOM's name in all caps all throughout the article. If it's the "admins" or a few select individuals who think only they and nobody else can be right and only they and nobody else understands Wikipedia's policies and stylistic choices, then congrats: Wikipedia has failed miserably at being a free encyclopedia. UltraCobson (talk) 16:14, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

It's not a simple matter of counting votes. When folks cite policies and official style guidelines then those arguments have much greater leverage. It could be a hundred to one on the votes, but if the one is saying we must adhere to MOS:ALLCAPS then that's the winning argument. Binksternet (talk) 18:13, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

I've seen so many exceptions made for that policy though. Why can't we make an exception here? UltraCobson (talk) 20:25, 2 September 2026 (UTC)

The FAQ answers that question under the heading "Can't we make an exception?". Popcornfud (talk) 01:47, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not have any firm rules, as said in WP:5P5. You are wrong and have always been wrong, and when provided with significant proving this, you simply ignore it. Smirkjuice (talk) 17:28, 6 September 2026 (UTC)

This LLM-generated text has been collapsed and should be excluded from assessments of consensus.

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I don't think this question should continue to be reduced to "Wikipedia doesn't care how he spelled it." That misses the stronger policy-based argument. The issue isn't simply how the artist personally styled his name; it's whether MF DOOM has sufficient independent, widespread usage to be treated as the actual form of the stage name rather than merely decorative capitalization.

There is substantial evidence that it does. Pitchfork currently identifies the artist as MF DOOM on its artist page and has repeatedly used MF DOOM in headlines and articles. Rolling Stone has repeatedly published MF DOOM. The Washington Post used MF DOOM in its coverage of The Chronicles of DOOM. Other major music publications have also used the all-caps form.

This usage extends beyond music journalism. Google currently presents his name as "MF DOOM" in its search results/knowledge presentation. While Google itself obviously should not determine Wikipedia's article title, it is relevant evidence against the idea that "MF DOOM" is an obscure, confusing, or purely promotional stylization. One of the world's dominant search and information platforms recognizes and presents the name in exactly that form.

The important distinction is that the argument for MF DOOM does not depend upon "the artist preferred it, therefore Wikipedia must use it." There are multiple independent factors pointing in the same direction:

The artist consistently used MF DOOM throughout his professional career.

The capitalization was intentional rather than incidental; he explicitly incorporated the spelling/capitalization of the name into his artistic work.

His albums and official releases overwhelmingly identify him as MF DOOM or DOOM.

Major independent reliable sources including Pitchfork, Rolling Stone, and The Washington Post use MF DOOM.

Google currently recognizes and prominently displays MF DOOM.

The all-caps form is immediately recognizable and creates no ambiguity or readability problem.

A reader searching for "MF Doom" will still reach an article titled "MF DOOM", so there is effectively no discoverability disadvantage.

At what point does something stop being an "artist's preferred stylization" and simply become the name by which the subject is known? If the subject used MF DOOM, his records used MF DOOM, reliable independent publications use MF DOOM, and major information/search services present MF DOOM, continuing to characterize DOOM as merely an optional typographical flourish becomes increasingly difficult to justify.

The previous requested-move discussions also should not be treated as permanently dispositive. Some date to 2009 and 2015. Even the later discussions predate a considerable amount of posthumous journalism, retrospective coverage, reissues, and the publication and coverage of The Chronicles of DOOM. Wikipedia consensus can change when the underlying evidence changes.

There is admittedly mixed usage between "MF Doom" and "MF DOOM". But that actually matters here: this is not a situation in which reliable sources overwhelmingly reject the subject's capitalization. Both forms occur in independent sources. When reliable-source usage supports both forms, MF DOOM has additional advantages: it accurately represents the established professional name, reflects the capitalization deliberately used throughout the subject's career, is now independently reproduced by major publications, is instantly recognizable, and causes no practical problem for readers.

WP exists to determine the name readers are most likely to recognize, not to mechanically normalize every unusual capitalization. MF DOOM is unquestionably recognizable as MF DOOM.

For these reasons, I think the current body of sources warrants a fresh assessment rather than simply pointing to discussions from years ago and declaring the matter permanently settled. There is now a policy-based case for MF DOOM that does not require Wikipedia to make an exception merely because fans prefer the capitalization. Jmeprpht (talk) 01:49, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

The list at Talk:MF_Doom/Capitalization_by_sources still has a large number of sources that do not capitalize the whole name. I don't see a majority in favor. The list does not include the 2020 academic paper by JJ Ramirez, nor the 2025 academic paper by D Charriéras, nor the 2026 academic paper by B Boman, all of which do not use all-caps. The literature about the man is still being expanded in both directions, all-caps and not. No majority exists for all-caps. Binksternet (talk) 02:33, 4 August 2026 (UTC)

Oppose See also discussions at:

2009: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_1#Requested_move_(2009)_Move_%22MF_Doom%22_to_MF_DOOM

2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_1#Requested_move_7_February_2015

2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_1#All_Caps

2021: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_2#DOOM_vs._Doom

2021: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_2#Semi-protected_edit_request_on_6_January_2021

2022: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:MF_Doom/Archive_2#All_caps

—DA1 (talk) 07:08, 13 March 2025 (UTC)

Again MF DOOM should be in all caps, every reason given to date for not doing so has been of absolutely no substance 86.111.160.242 (talk) 11:23, 16 September 2025 (UTC)

AGREE, it's ALL CAPS when you spell the man name. This isn't a scenario where using the name and its style and its spelling as the artist prefers may confuse people or trip up search engines, if anything insisting on keeping it non-all-caps might. "But my Wikipedia standards, there are multiple sources typing it without all caps!", opponents will say. I shall propose to you multiple counterarguments to that. First let me guide you not far, as a search for more "DOOM" within Wikipedia may lead you to the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOOM_Inc. I can't help but marvel at the uppercase there. As DOOM released more songs — which i see fit as reliable sources of information — signed as DOOM in all capitals than there is total references (I could not be bothered to read through them and inspect the capitalization) on the page which I just brought up (15, that's as much as there is songs on MM..FOOD alone) then using this slightly manipulative argument in a villainous spirit, I must conclude that apparently the editing standards of Wikipedia aren't quite so important after all. And they can't be without ruining the site, for if the Bible is way far more widely distributed and discussed than any source on cosmology then should the page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Bang be removed in favor of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genesis_creation_narrative? It's like someone spelling Barbra Streisand's name wrong. How does that action justify spelling it wrong again? Besides doing it to clear the potential confusion it doesn't. The editors' pettiness results in ordinary disinformation. In at least two songs DOOM mentioned how to write his name correctly, these are obviously "All Caps" (https://genius.com/Madvillain-all-caps-lyrics) and the less well-known "Monkey Suite" (https://genius.com/Madvillain-monkey-suite-lyrics). Writing in anything but ALL CAPS the name of someone who has made a whole song culminating in how his name shall be written in ALL CAPS is disinformation. UŻYTKOWNIK THC (talk) 20:29, 31 March 2026 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 December 2025

In the 'Family' section of 'Personal life' "and for nearly two years,he saw them only via video calls" needs a space after the comma. ~2025-38495-83 (talk) 16:13, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

 Done IsCat (talk) 16:24, 4 December 2025 (UTC)

British-American

Per MOS:ETHNICITY, his nationality should be "British and American". I have no issues with the rationale of presenting both countries here but feel it is important to follow the MOS to make it clear that both countries are of equal standing. Having it as it is implies he is British of American descent, or American of British descent, so to avoid that confusion it is best to write "and". orangesclub 🍊 21:24, 13 December 2025 (UTC)

I'm on the fence here, as I can't figure out how the MOS guidance should be applied to the case of Doom.

The MOS cites Arnold Schwarzenegger and Peter Lorre as examples of "X and American", but in both cases it's because they had dual citizenship. But Doom didn't have dual citizenship, so does this apply?

As far as I can tell, the MOS doesn't cite any other circumstances when the "X and Y" phrasing be used, but I might not be interpreting it correctly. Popcornfud (talk) 12:55, 19 December 2025 (UTC)

@Orangesclub I agree ~2025-34710-17 (talk) 17:25, 24 January 2026 (UTC)

“And American” He was not American

While I would certainly like US immigration law to be more open to foreign talent (I have a 27+ year waitlist for my Green Card lol) MF Doom was never an American citizen or a legal alien there. He arrived, as the article notes, on a temporary visit B visa

He is British and only British (unless someone can prove he holds those Caribbean nationalities through his parents) Hexadecimal16 (talk) 19:12, 4 April 2026 (UTC)

See the FAQ. Popcornfud (talk) 02:32, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Saw it before commenting, incorrect information from “some sources” should not make its way to Wikipedia. He was never legally American. You can add something like “based in the United States” until 2010 Hexadecimal16 (talk) 11:18, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Wikipedia is based on sources. We can't write articles based on our own interpretations of the facts. This is explained in the FAQ. Popcornfud (talk) 11:42, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Those sources are very clearly wrong! This is not an interpretation of the fact, but a fact. US citizens cannot get deported from America

I haven’t actually seen many sources that describe him as American though. Mostly this Wikipedia page and other sources who are citing this Wikipedia page. Hexadecimal16 (talk) 11:45, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

Here are some sources that describe Doom as American or British-American: BBC, BBC, BBC, NME, Rolling Stone.

We can't simply dismiss these sources based on our own interpretations. If you don't like that, you have a bigger problem with how Wikipedia works that goes beyond this page. See WP:TRUTH.

Note that Wikipedia doesn't claim that Doom was an American citizen. Nationality or nationhood is not the same as citizenship. See MOS:NATIONALITY. Popcornfud (talk) 12:35, 5 April 2026 (UTC)

I wonder if these sources calling him British-American is due to this article itself. (see circular citation or referencing)

Regardless, in case of disputed nationality (like Copernicus), MOS:NATIONALITY recommends omitting the nationality of the subject. Since his nationality remains disputed and contradictory, I would recommend omitting it in the lead section Hexadecimal16 (talk) 12:44, 5 April 2026 (UTC)