Talk:Human wave attack

Delete the last 2 unsourced paragraphs on Imperial Japanese Army.

The Japanese outnumbered Russians at Port Arthur and most of the Japanese human wave attacks failed and Japan lost more dead . There's already a separate section for Russo-Japanese war that's sourced on that page and says the Japanese got massacred when doing this

""The charge was used successfully in the Russo-Japanese War and the Second Sino-Japanese War, where the highly disciplined Japanese soldiers were fighting against enemies with comparatively lower discipline and without many automatic weapons such as machine guns, oftentimes outnumbering them as well. In such instances, a determined charge could break into the enemy lines and win the day. The effectiveness of such strategies in China made them a standard tactic for the Imperial Japanese Army" This paragraph has zero sources at all, the japanese were known to fail in hand to hand combat with chinese soldiers and just resort to blanketing the battlefield with lewisite agents. 80-90% of Chinese casualties in the entire war were caused by japanese artillery bombardments. in no way does this show that Japanese bayonet charges were a "standardized tactic" in china Krips15 (talk) 02:16, 31 August 2026 (UTC)

Requesting removal of the sensationalist media myth in "Russian invasion of Ukraine"

Literally all of it. Russian attacks were and are either normal attacks of any size (be it mechanised or infantry) or they very slowly infiltrate in extremely small groups, nowadays most commonly 2 to 3 men, or just going alone (they can consolidate into somewhat larger groups after traversing deep into or even beyond the kill zone).

The confusion comes from the term "meat" (мясо) meaning in both Russian and Ukrainian just the same as the English term "cannon fodder" (you can just check the title of the Russian Wikipedia version of this article), and nothing more or less, and it's been used like that for generations. It's been somehow mistranslated as "human wave" by dilletante journalists. There were never any human waves in the entire war.

Including by Wagner, who instead used teams or squad sized groups using stealth and guided by drones (innovation then now commonly used by Ukrainian kill zone raiders on the infiltrator hideous, or by Russians in infiltrator attacks). This CNN report at the time described the reality of Wagner tactics well (except mistranslating the RPO rocket flamethrower as "rocket-propelled grenades (RPGs)"): https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/23/europe/russia-wagner-tactics-report-ukraine-intl It's about an actual Ukrainian military report, not any journalistic nonsense.

North Koreans also used normal infantry tactics, before adapting to modern warfare (drone warfare).

Ironically, what has been almost sole way of advancing by Russia in over 2 years - extremely slow infiltration by individual troops - has no mention at all in the article infiltration tactics. But over here so much about completely made up stuff. ~2026-45482-86 (talk) 16:07, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Everything is supported by reliable sources, sounds like you should go and complain at infiltration tactics instead. TylerBurden (talk) 16:17, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

These are unreliable sources - dilletante journalist not understanding what a "human wave" actually means. And as I already mention, anything "meat" in both Russian and Ukrainian in military context means just "cannon fodder" in English, this is the literal translation. --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 16:24, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

Not by Wikipedia standards, you're providing your own original research (WP:OR). Even policies aside, claiming that North Koreans used "normal infantry tactics" with the infamous videos of them charging over open fields and getting destroyed puts your own alleged expertise in question.

Either way, you should read WP:DUE to learn how Wikipedia works, because it isn't based on your own uncited rebuttals, no matter how good you think they are. TylerBurden (talk) 16:35, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

So I went and checked the first ref - a now deleted WP article (redirects to the main page). Okay the second one: https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/human-wave-tactics-are-demoralizing-the-russian-army-in-ukraine/ - "apparent reliance on human wave tactics" with the link that now-deleted WP article. Shows very well his this idiotic legend was created and spred. The article than continues to dwell on this nonsense of such "apparent" Wagner tactics. Garbage. Literally unreliable.

Once again - read the actual Ukrainian military report on the real Wagner tactics: https://edition.cnn.com/2023/01/23/europe/russia-wagner-tactics-report-ukraine-intl (you can also read elsewhere about this report and on the subject generally). Let me quote: "The Ukrainian report says that Wagner deploys its forces in mobile groups of about a dozen or fewer" - and then let me add that the most typical "human wave" was a squad around 8 men, slowly creeping between and beyond Ukrainian positions (as mentioned in the article, guided by drones) and supported by heavy weapons also guided by these drones (also mentioned). They typically each carried an RPO (the article's "RPGs") they would fire before assaulting (normal assaults with firearms and exolosives, never melee). And these were just the cannon fodder (meat) convict troops of the "first wave" - "More experienced fighters, with thermal imagery and night-vision equipment, follow." - --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 16:42, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

And this is why the article is protected, you still don't understand WP:DUE. TylerBurden (talk) 16:57, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

Some foreign dilletante journalist in a deleted article, and others just repeating his nonsense, more "due" than the actual official Ukrainian military intelligence report? Really?

Here you can see the leading "Ukrainian journalist and military analyst Yuriy Butusov, who travels to the fronts to make videos" (citing Le Monde description of him at Bakhmut: https://www.lemonde.fr/en/international/article/2023/06/02/scenes-from-infernal-bakhmut-the-longest-battle-of-the-war-in-ukraine_6028798_4.html) Butusov show and comment on the real Wagner tactics on the example of a typical attack in footage recorded by an Ukrainian drone, so you can actually see it, instead of being just described: https://youtube.com/watch?v=k3ZxY2xNKU8

I also see others up anove trying to explain to you how this is something that never happened but to no avail. Did you never wonder why you never saw any videos of these "human wave attacks" in the war where drones and other cameras have recorded almost everything? No, there were no "infamous videos of [North Koreans] charging over open fields and getting destroyed". You may be mistaking them in the videos in the style of "a platoon sized element walking normally (legacy warfare) in a loose single file column and coming under artillery fire", from the first weeks before they adjusted to modern warfare (drone warfare). (And also before Rubicon suppressed Ukrainian artillery.)

Also, here's from the BBC based on Wagner's own leaked documents and military exoerts (not some foreign dilletante journalist in a deleted aerticle): https://bbcrussian.substack.com/p/how-wagner-lost-17000-fighters-in-bakhmut

>Wagner’s tactics in the city were wave-like attacks by small groups. Prisoners were in the vanguard, as Prigozhin had promised. Each group was composed of eight to a dozen men.

>“The prisoners would be sent first onto the Ukrainian positions, and that would force the Ukrainians to reveal themselves and engage with their close support weapons, their heavy machine guns and possible with artillery in some cases. That would give the Russians an opportunity to locate those systems, those strong points, those positions and engage them,” says British military expert Samuel Cranny-Evans from Royal United Services Institute, a think-tank.

Let me remind you of an English Wikipedia description of a human wave attack :

>A human wave attack, also known as a human sea attack,[1] is an offensive infantry tactic in which an attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders by engaging in melee combat. The name refers to the concept of a coordinated mass of soldiers falling upon an enemy force and sweeping them away with sheer weight and momentum, like an ocean wave breaking on a beach.

Which never happened in this war, and there is really no reason for this completely obvious falsification of history.

Oh, and heres also an American military report (instead of some "due" dilletante journalist from a deleted article, and the following game of telephone among other dilletante jourbalists): https://oe.t2com.army.mil/product/the-composition-and-tactics-of-wagner-assault-detachments/ It is based on the same Ukrainian report.

And Butusov again on the Wagner tactics in the article form: https://censor.net/ua/resonance/3382797/taktyka_vagnera_yak_dosyagayut_rezultativ_zeky_z_trytyjnevoyu_pidgotovkoyu_ta_yak_yih_byut (translation: https://wavellroom.com/2022/12/15/the-battle-for-bakhmut/)

Some other Ukrainian experts: https://prismua.org/en/wagner/ ("There is a lot of noise, myths and legends surrounding the “Wagner” mercenaries" indeed.)

>Each group follows its own designated attack route, with specific positions assigned to each individual. A group leader oversees the direction of the assault and the activities of subordinates. Tablets with topographic maps are used to assess the ground situation.

>The assault teams seek to approach Ukrainian positions covertly, often accompanied by unmanned aerial vehicles that provide battlefield surveillance. Quite often, artillery backs the attackers by initially targeting Ukrainian positions. Once the artillery has targeted the positions, the mercenaries proceed to engage identified firing points using small arms, mortars, and automatic grenade launchers. This is followed by a direct assault on defensive structures or buildings, led by the assault group commanders (leaders). If unsuccessful, the assault may be repeated several times. The use of drones to monitor the situation and artillery support enhances the organisation and coordination of the offensive.

>Upon successfully capturing a position, the Wagnerites try to fortify it by constructing defensive structures and trenches. They may receive artillery support to deter Ukrainian forces from reclaiming the position. According to reports from the Ukrainian military, mercenary units can launch “countless” assaults on Ukrainian positions, disregarding casualties, in order to achieve their objectives at any cost. Armoured vehicles are seldom employed in close combat, primarily being used for long-range shelling of Ukrainian positions, and mercenary-controlled artillery is dispersed to avoid Ukrainian counter-battery fire.

>The infrequent use of armoured vehicles is also attributed to the Wagnerites’ pursuit of maximum surprise in their assault operations. Additionally, mercenaries often opt for night-time attacks on Ukrainian positions. Night battles typically involve assault groups comprising 10 to 20 militants. In urban areas, the mercenaries engage in combat in small groups, primarily consisting of four smaller subgroups. Two of these subgroups are “light” and the other two are armed with heavy weapons, such as grenade launchers, anti-tank guns, and various types of machine guns. The assault team commander typically accompanies one of the heavily armed subgroups, while the “light” subgroups assume the role of detection and initial contact with the enemy.

There were never any instances "an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders by engaging in melee combat" from the definition.

These were small assault groups, using stealth and firearms, and heavily supported by both drones (early modern warfare novelty, including first Russian FPVs) and the traditional support/heavy weapons of various kinds.

Oh, and here's an example of a correct translation of "meat" (cannon fodder): https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20241210-ukraine-struggles-against-russian-meat-grinder-tactics

>"We're losing ground to cannon fodder," Goth said bitterly, with a puff of blueish smoke. He said Russian forces were sending waves of small groups of men one after another, eventually overpowering outnumbered and exhausted Ukrainian troops. (...) "We're up against an army with four times more people," Kurt said. "Fifty percent is just cannon fodder, former prisoners, people from lower classes that Russia deems disposable," he said. (...) This slip-up could provide an insight into the extent of Russian casualties, which are fuelled by the "meat grinder" tactic. The expression became widespread during the battle for Bakhmut in which Russia deployed tens of thousands -- including convicts recruited from prisons by Yevgeny Prigozhin's Wagner Group -- to storm and overrun Ukrainian positions.

As I said, all mentions of "meat" should go to cannon fodder (see the Russian Wikipedia version of this article for the title and also the content, the use of "meat" in Ukraine is there). Everything else - deleted.

And if you really want, you can even make a cannon fodder split article titled perhaps Cannon fodder tactics in Ukraine or maybe Meat grinder tactics about such (not human wave) attacks, and defenses for that matter (because "meat" is not just for attacks).

--~2026-45482-86 (talk) 17:42, 3 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

I'm going also to remind (or inform) you that melee combat of ANY sort is something that is just not happening in this war. There has been only 1 recorded instance of any melee combat (riots not included) in 12 years since 2014, which was a knife fight between 2 men (survivors of their respective small groups, where Russians were defending a house and everyone else have been killee by gunshots and explosions before this unique one melee fight).

So if you think "human wave" means anything else than what can be described as "A human wave attack, also known as a human sea attack,[1] is an offensive infantry tactic in which an attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders by engaging in melee combat. The name refers to the concept of a coordinated mass of soldiers falling upon an enemy force and sweeping them away with sheer weight and momentum, like an ocean wave breaking on a beach." it also should be deleted, because you mean something else than the English Wikipedia definition of this term.

The term" human wave" doesn't even naturally exist in Slavic language, btw. This is why this article here doesn't have version in Slavic languages that aren't direct and mechanical translations of the English Wikipedia article (with the Czech version even starting with " Útok lidských vln (anglicky human wave attack) ") because it's an entirely transplanted concept that is not in an actual use. As I've already mentioned, every and each instance of a "translation to English" by some dilletante journalist from either Ukrainian or Russian is a mistranslation of meat (мясо, м'ясо' - myaso) - that was to mean cannon fodder (the literal meaning) in Russian and Ukrainian, and also Polish (https://wiktionary.org/wiki/mięso_armatnie) etc. If you think that is important, you can write about it at cannon fodder, as I've also already mentioned.

There are countless articles in Russians and Ukrainian languages using "meat" (and anything "meat", like "meat assault" - just put this phrase in Google in Russian and Ukrainian and your search results should return you the definition of cannon fodder in English, even with link to English Wikipedia article "cannon fodder" - you can also read what Gemini says about it) in the proper context. Here is for example a Radio Free Europe article in Russians about Russians "perfecting" (quote) their "meat assault tactics" (that is, cannon fodder assault tactics) "as a result of which the Russian military was able to occupy Avdiivka in the Donetsk region in February 2024 (for this Mordvichev was personally praised by Putin, later signing a decree awarding the general the star of "Hero of Russia"), as well as the successes of the Russian army in the Pokrovsk direction": https://www.svoboda.org/a/taktik-myasnyh-shturmov-chto-govoryat-o-generale-mordvicheve/33415872.html as "meat tactics" (cannon fodder tactics) now is also the very same thing as the infiltration tactics. And any other tactics (including defense) for that matter, just keep reading about the war in the original Ukrainian and Russian and you'll see.

--~2026-45482-86 (talk) 09:22, 5 September 2026 (UTC)

I provided many "cited rebuttals" as requested and explained in detail how this stupid legend was created by an unreliable source (one now-deleted article and the subsequent game of telephone) but was ignored by the single editor who just stopped replying. @AmaduesALPHADELTA: @RadioactiveBoulevardier: @Carlp941: @Salfanto: @Michael Z.: @Betelgeuse X: @Just-a-can-of-beans: @Dauzlee: @Nenovn: @Idumea47b: @Lazarbeem: (notifying everyone) please read the entire thing and decide should it be deleted. --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 13:50, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Why was I pinged here? Lazarbeem (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

From reading the article where the "Banzai Charge" comparison is made, it seems to be just a title made for clicks as the article itself doesn't make a comparison to an actual Banzai charge Lazarbeem (talk) 14:03, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

The titles alone from two of the sources from the very first paragraph of the Russian Invasion section are self-explanatory. Bloomberg and the Atlantic Council most definitely are reliable sources.

"Russia's 'Human Wave Attacks' Are Another Step Into Hell"

"Human wave tactics are demoralizing the Russian army in Ukraine"

Post after post of your silly original research isn't going to change anything. Now stop spamming this page. Betelgeuse X (talk) 18:53, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Lazarbeem: the only one editor who replied then just ignored everything I write, believing his evidently undue and unreliable sources (I checked the sample 2 first references used here: turned out to be a now-deleted article followed by another repeating after the same article and directly citing it while using phrases like "apparent") were more due and reliable than even an actual Ukrainian military intelligence report. So I just notified everyone from earlier discussions.

You wrote:

> As for if the entire Russo-Ukrainian war section should be removed, I am not entirely certain. However, I feel like a few key points about it need to be discussed: -The quality and reliability of the sources present -If what the sources are describing actually correlate to the article's topic -Any potential biases that may be present -It's necessity to the article as a whole

I obviously want to just delete all of that here (as its nothing but complete nonsense and misinformation) but if course it can be discussed. I put my arguments above but all of it can be elaborated further, with the evidence.

I'll also repeat how much of it can be reused at cannon fodder regarding the evidently prominent Slavic-languages use of "meat" instead of "fodder". --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 14:10, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

I said that they need to be discussed and I am willing to discuss them. However note that I can't always immediately reply. If there's a point where we should start then please name it and we can start fresh from there Lazarbeem (talk) 14:13, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

The entire thing, you can take your time.

I'll also answer allegations of supposee North Korean human waves.

TylerBurden: "Even policies aside, claiming that North Koreans used "normal infantry tactics" with the infamous videos of them charging over open fields and getting destroyed puts your own alleged expertise in question."

There are no such videos, infamous or famous or any other. It was just simply legacy warfare normal infantry tactics of platoon size, by extremely well trained troops with absolute morale (like Japanese in banzai attacks, but nothing like bazaii attacks besides not caring about living or dying). It was just made impossible drones - before they adapted.

Dauzlee already posted https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2025/02/the-myth-of-human-wave-attacks-obscures-what-north.html

I'll add there was 0 instances in any circumstances of any sort of "melee conbat" involving North Koreans at all (besides killing themselves with knives, barbed wire, and once even own teeth, as to not be taken prisoner). To the contrary, they greatly impressed Ukrainian with their skill with shooting firearms, which was widely reported worldwide. For example:

'Arms ablaze, they still charged': Ukrainian forces stunned by North Korea's 'meat assaults' - what's behind such headline? No mention of "human wave" anything, but mentions of both "cannon fodder" and "meat" (which, as I've explained, means just the same). And also:

>But Kim chose to absorb the casualties and draw lessons instead. It did not take long for North Korean troops to master shooting down drones on sight, which is called a "hard kill." (...) "Because North Korean soldiers' marksmanship was so accurate, reconnaissance drones and artillery spotting drones — which flew low on other front lines — had to fly at significantly higher altitudes on the Kursk front," one source explained.

Because of course they were in fact shooting - extremely well. Here's an example of their actual performance, instead of "infamous videos" of "human waves" that doesn't exist: https://www.npr.org/2025/06/16/g-s1-71531/north-korea-soldiers-russia-ukraine-war-drones (it does talk in English about "cannon fodder", too, and of course no "human wave" nonsense at all)

Before they adjusted to modern warfare (drone warfare):

>He noticed that despite the group's size — "20, 30 soldiers" — the troops moved together, even in open fields, where they could be spotted by drones. Vlad said the soldiers appeared fit, fast and quick to maneuver. "So it is a much more disciplined way of fighting that we observed from Russians," Vlad said. Moving in such groups in open fields, however, left these soldiers exposed and easily spotted by drones. Vlad also noticed that the North Koreans risked their lives to retrieve the bodies of their colleagues from those fields. "I've never seen the Russians do that," Vlad said. (...) Ukraine has pioneered the use of FPV drones to track and attack Russian and North Korean soldiers. Because the North Koreans moved in big groups at first, Andriy said they were easy targets for artillery, "and if some of them survived, it was easier for FPV drones to find them."

After they quickly did adapt - as I the article title, "North Koreans fighting for Russia against Ukraine have grown skilled in drone warfare":

>Maksym, a Ukrainian drone operator, said the North Koreans seemed to take such instructions to heart. He noticed how they calmly stood in fields and shot at drones with rifles "very precisely." "They shot down my drones multiple times," Maksym said.

And so on. Actual reliable sources are plentiful and very easy to find. Another sample example: https://edition.cnn.com/2025/01/31/europe/ukraine-russia-kursk-north-korean-troops-intl

>A commander with the 6th Special Operations Forces regiment, who did not want to give his name for security reasons, told CNN that while the North Korean soldiers are “all young, trained, hardy fighters,” they would have not previously faced drones in combat. “They are prepared for the realities of war in 1980 at best,” he said. Another battalion serviceman told CNN the North Koreans had shown good marksmanship when shooting down drones from about a 100-meter distance, suggesting a high level of training in North Korea. However, Russia appears to be using the troops as foot soldiers, using them to carry out mass ground assaults despite major losses in Kursk.

It's not a problem at all. Again, that's not "human wave" anything, including not as defined as Wikipedia. It was just pre-drone tactics. Nothing more, nothing else.

Oh, and this (kinda sensationalist itself) "arms ablaze but still charging" thing - this was actually without shooting, but not anything "human wave" of course. Just the literally absolute morale that I talked about (and which included one killing himself by biting his veins after having been captured unconcious):

>"It must have been early in the fighting," Svyatoslav said. "One of the North Korean soldiers was already severely wounded in the head and wrapped in bandages. "He had no weapon, so he made a Molotov cocktail and ran toward our position," Svyatoslav said. "He dropped it twice while running, and the fire caught his hand and set his entire arm ablaze. He kept charging to the end."

Normal (legacy) infantry tactics, but also totally hard core. Soon they adapted to drones too.

And the official Ukrainian military intelligence evaluation, again (I talked much about their report about Wagner above): https://www.theguardian.com/world/2025/jan/18/suicides-new-tactics-and-propaganda-ipads-details-from-captured-north-koreans-expose-new-foe-in-ukraine

>Meanwhile, North Korean troops are gaining valuable experience of 21st century war. Maj Gen Vadym Skybytskyi, the HUR’s deputy chief, said they were learning from their mistakes. “To begin with they advanced in large groups across snowy fields. The next lot won’t do that. They are learning new tactics and how to fight in a drone environment.” Those who survive will return home as military trainers, he said. Speaking to the Observer, Skybytskyi said the North Koreans were keen and ideologically driven. Casualties – 300 dead, 2,700 injured, according to Seoul – have not dented morale. Soldiers have blown themselves up to avoid capture.

A field commander's explanation from the same article - and him comparing their merely platoon sized movements with Russians going by only 2-3 men, which this article calls "human waves" too somehow:

>The unit’s commander Vadym Riddik said the North Koreans were taking brutal losses. “We kill them with our drones,” he said. “They move in groups of 30 or 40. The Russians are more careful and go around in twos or threes.” To prove his point, Riddik showed off videos from kamikaze drones. First one and then another fell on a large party of North Koreans as they walked on open ground. They toppled over, dead or injured. In Riddik’s view, warfare had changed completely – something Pyongyang now understands better, albeit at a bloody cost.

Legacy warfare tactics, from before the drone warfare era, are still being taught around the world, including Europe or America, of course. These are also not "human wave" tactics.

--~2026-45482-86 (talk) 15:02, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

I stopped responding because you refuse to understand the point, which is that this is your own analysis, whereas WP:RS exists that do support the content.

Posting nonending WP:WALLOFTEXT is not going to change that fact, the only source you have provided that even comes close to supporting your argument is https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2025/02/the-myth-of-human-wave-attacks-obscures-what-north.html, which per WP:DUE, still doesn't justify removal of content here. TylerBurden (talk) 17:09, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

These are not my "own analysis", I can assure you I don't actually work in Ukrainian military intelligence for example (believe me). I dint post "wall of text" before you started demanding "cited rebuttals" about your anecdotes of some unspecified "infamous videos". So I provided a plenty, including citing text descriptions what the Kursk videos of the North Koreans platoons actually show (that is pre-drone warfare, specifically described as such). --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 17:45, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

No one thinks you do, you just still apparently do not understand how this works. Unless you are able to produce more sources that actually supports your arguments (no, your claims about "Ukrainian military intelligence" do not dispute that North Korea used human wave tactics, regardless of Skybytskyi's assessment of its FUTURE tactics), which so far with all with these walls of text, you have provided a single one, you should stop WP:BLUDGEONING this talk page, which is under WP:CCT restrictions (you are not an extended-confirmed user). TylerBurden (talk) 18:06, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

Not any "future", they have adapted to drone warfare very quickly. They did so by the time these articles have been written, as he himself said when he "said they were learning from their mistakes". I already wrote about how they adapted in more of the posted "cited rebuttals" above (they learned not just to disperse but also how to shoot down drones, using their amazing firearm training, but that's not all - they also started using drones themselves for example), do you want me to start posting even more about how quickly they adapted and how well they did so?

Here specifically about the myth of the "human waves" nonsense in general (post-Bakhmut with illustration of Prigozhin): https://taskandpurpose.com/news/us-military-war-of-attrition-massive-attacks/

>While Wagner mercenaries continue to carry out these frontal assaults as cannon fodder, the private military company is using this tactic much less in recent months, said Karolina Hird, a Russia Analyst at the Institute for the Study of War think tank in Washington, D.C. (...) Nonetheless, Russia’s use of mercenaries as cannon fodder raises the question of how well the U.S. military would perform against an adversary that fought to win by attrition.

Note the repeated use of "cannon fodder". It's "meat" (myaso) directly translated to English. It's the direct translation. It doesn't translate as "human wave". Once again, use any translators and also check the Slavic versions of the articles cannon fodder and human wave attack.

>But it is unlikely that Russia, China, North Korea, or Iran would launch such attacks against U.S. forces in a future conflict, said Matthew Cancian, a former Marine Corps captain and artillery officer. “I believe that ‘human wave attacks’ of hundreds of soldiers advancing without attention to cover have been mostly a myth since the early stages of World War I,” Cancian told Task & Purpose. “Even a squad of U.S. soldiers supported by air and artillery could defeat an attack like that. Furthermore, most countries do not field a fraction of the manpower that they did when these ‘human wave attacks’ were alleged to occur.”

Why did I bold out "even a squad"? Because it's positioned opposite to "hundreds of soldiers" needed for a human wave. And Wagner operated in the "even" squads - not in "hundreds", but in small groups, most often 8-12. And Russians for years after Bakhmut (when the Western legend of "human waves" was born) have been normally operating not even in squads, and not even in classic teams - but just moving almost only by 2-3 men, or even only 1.

It can't be possibly more different than the idea of "human wave" even if to disregard the English Wikipedia definition of the necessity of them having to rush to "engage in melee combat" (ANY documented melee combat occured only once in the entire war and it was 1 on 1 - so rare that both participants officially became national heroes: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2025/01/17/7494079/).

Oh and, hilariously, that Wikipedia definition in this article here uses melee combat that links to medieval tournaments. What should be properly used is Hand-to-hand combat.

--~2026-45482-86 (talk) 18:42, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

So what you are arguing is that any inclusion of a human wave for a country in this article should match the definition of a human wave attack? Lazarbeem (talk) 18:50, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

@Lazarbeem: : There are no native Slavic definitions of "human wave attack". This phrase is a foreign transplant that is simply not being used by neither Ukrainians not Russians.

The word that is often mistranslated, including here in this article, "meat" (myaso), means cannon fodder. It was originally cannon meat but then became just meat in their languages (it's still cannon meat with "cannon" in it in other Slavic languages, like Polish mięso armatnie that is 'cannon meat', not just mięso). When the Ru or Ua say "meat" they don't mean "human wave attack", nor even an attack at all (a meat can be just a cannon fodder defense). It's shared by both sides, alike their common use of pidar[y] (a slur) to mean the enemy.

You can ask anyone there, and you can check yourself using any computer translator, and by just checking the Wikipedia articles in these (and other) Slavic languages.

@Betelgeuse X:: maybe you should read more than "titles alone". I'll address your two supposedly perfect sources of your own choice:

1. "Russia's 'Human Wave Attacks' Are Another Step Into Hell" (https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2023-02-14/russia-s-human-wave-tactics-in-ukraine-reflect-vladimir-putin-s-values)

This is just an opinion article (you can see the word "opinion" in the link) by a random civilian. Now,

>As the war approaches its first anniversary, increasing numbers of Russians in Ukraine — both regular soldiers and Wagner mercenaries — are being treated by their superiors as “cannon fodder.”

Again, confusion regarding cannon fodder (meat).

>Another name for this approach is “human-wave attacks.”

No, it's not. This why English Wikipedia has separate articles for both of these terms.

Most of the article then is spent talking about Chinese in Korea and other randomness, doesn't explain why this random civilian thought "human wave attacks" is somehow somehow "another name" for cannon fodder. You can read the Bloomberg article to see how completely useless it is for Ukraine (it's hardly useful for any other war, you have experts for that).

1. "Human wave tactics are demoralizing the Russian army in Ukraine" (https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/ukrainealert/human-wave-tactics-are-demoralizing-the-russian-army-in-ukraine/)

This one is based on the deleted WP article (https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/russias-human-wave-attacks-are-another-stepinto-hell/2023/02/14/574e7202-ac27-11ed-b0ba-9f4244c6e5da_story.html - it redirects to main page). Why was it deleted? It's not normal to delete articles, is it?

>Crucially, an apparent reliance on human wave tactics during Russia’s recent winter offensive has led to catastrophic losses which threaten to undermine morale within the ranks of Putin’s invading army.

The writer's idea of these "apparent" human wave tactics is so based on the deleted WP article so much that the phrase "human wave tactics" in this paragraph is the link to the deleted WP article - the game of telephone has began. It's not based about anything else and doesn't say anything about this "apparent" phenomenon there, besides only the following:

>While unconfirmed, these figures are supported by extensive battlefield footage, much of which appears to show Russian troops engaged in reckless frontal assaults on entrenched defensive positions.

This is absolutely NOT the English Wikipedia definition of human wave attack. This is, however, completely in accordance to the English Wikipedia definition of cannon fodder.

Always read beyond just headlines. Also, be civil. --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 20:35, 16 September 2026 (UTC)

Oh don't worry, I have read the articles themselves.

"The human wave tactics on display in eastern Ukraine reflect Russia’s narrowing military options following a year of embarrassing battlefield setbacks."

Again, your attempt to discredit articles that state point-blank the use of human wave tactics by Russia is laughable. Repeatedly posting your own original research and demanding that a Wikipedia article be modified because it doesn't conform to your own personal opinion will indeed annoy people. Betelgeuse X (talk) 07:21, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

I think that he's trying to say is if what's being mentioned in the news sources matches Wikipedia's definition of a human wave attack Lazarbeem (talk) 17:25, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

Looks like they match.

Wikipedia:

"According to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement."

Atlantic Council article:

"Human wave tactics are not new and typically involve soldiers conducting direct attacks in large numbers with the objective of overwhelming an opposing force."

"In the present war against Ukraine, the Kremlin may see human wave tactics as an effective way of overcoming determined Ukrainian resistance. It allows Russia to wear down Ukraine’s numerically fewer but battle-hardened troops, and can be implemented using a combination of easily replaced forces including recently mobilized soldiers and former convicts serving in the Wagner private military company."

"Although grisly, Russia’s human wave tactics are producing results. However, any advances during the past three months in Bakhmut and at other points along the 600-mile front line have been modest in scale and have come at a high cost. In an interview with Current Time on the front lines of Bakhmut, one Ukrainian soldier described the horrors of Russia’s frontal assaults. “The Russian soldiers face certain death in these attacks, but they are not retreating,” he commented. “You can shoot his head off, but his comrade will keep coming. Their own commanders will kill them if they don’t attack.”" Betelgeuse X (talk) 05:15, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Ok if they match they it can be kept. The only thing I suggest removing is the comparison to Banzai charges as that comparison was only made by David Axe (in this article -> https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/02/26/modern-banzai-russian-troops-pile-onto-vehicles-speed-toward-ukrainian-lines--and-die-but-the-tactic-is-helping-russia-advance/?sh=7ed0ef2cb5ef) and doesn't match Wikipedia's definition of a Banzai charge. Also looking back on other messages on the talk page I'm not the only one who thinks that the Banazi charge comparison should be removed Lazarbeem (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

And you are an editor with a history of making WP:NPOV violations, if you have problems with reliable sources, you are making a very flawed argument given your own editing history. TylerBurden (talk) 21:40, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

I gave my own view on this situation after I was pinged and came to the conclusion that if what is described in the sources matches what is described in Wikipedia's definition of a Human wave attack is, then the section should be kept. However with that in mind, I said that the comparison to Banzai charges should be removed because the only source that makes that comparison is an article by David Axe and his explanation of doesn't match Wikipedia's definition of a Banzai charge.Furthermore I am not the only editor who thinks this judging from past talk page comments. Also please do not resort to personal attacks. Lazarbeem (talk) 23:12, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

No one is personally attacking you, on the contrary your complete failure of understanding WP:DUE is being pointed out. TylerBurden (talk) 00:25, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Wouldn't the Banzai charge comparison be WP:UNDUE because only David Axe made that comparison? Lazarbeem (talk) 20:59, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

David Axe writing for Forbes, in other words established RS with editorial oversight, no matter how disliked he is in pro-Russian circles. How "Wikipedia defines a human wave attack" doesn't matter, since Wikipedia itself is not a reliable source. TylerBurden (talk) 07:33, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

I was pointing out how only David Axe made that comparison and how his example of what he describes as a Banzai charge doesn't match what a Banzai charge actually is Lazarbeem (talk) 14:18, 21 September 2026 (UTC)

Well unfortunately for you Forbes is considered a more reliable source than you. TylerBurden (talk) 06:21, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm talking about the reliability of David Axe. Per WP:UNDUE: "the views of tiny minorities should not be included at all, except perhaps in a "See also" to an article about those specific views. For example, the article on the Earth does not directly mention modern support for the flat Earth concept, the view of a distinct (and minuscule) minority; to do so would give undue weight to it." Since David Axe is the only person to make the comparison to Banzai charges and the example that he uses doesn't match what a Banzai charge actually is, it should not be included per WP:UNDUE Lazarbeem (talk) 18:06, 22 September 2026 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster defines a banzai charge as "a determined often reckless act".

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/banzai%20charge

I don't see how this conflicts with David Axe's article. Betelgeuse X (talk) 06:18, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

"Banzai charge or Banzai attack (Japanese: バンザイ突撃 or 万歳突撃, banzai totsugeki) is the term that was used by the Allied forces of World War II to refer to Japanese human wave attacks and swarming staged by infantry units."

Banzai Cliff was the Site of Hundreds of Suicides at the Battle of Saipan

One final push

David Axe's example: Noting the Ukrainians’ desperate shortage of artillery ammo, the Russians are betting that back-to-back-to-back waves of troops, riding in or on infantry fighting vehicles, can deplete Ukrainian firepower faster than the Ukrainians can deplete Russian manpower.

Modern Banzai Charge: Russian Troops Pile Onto Vehicles, Speed Toward Ukrainian Lines ... And Die. But The Tactic Is Helping Russia Advance.

The difference is that David Axe's example specifically mentions the use IFVs while a Banzai charge is a purely infantry attack Lazarbeem (talk) 13:11, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster's definition doesn't discern between infantry or non-infantry. Betelgeuse X (talk) 07:17, 24 September 2026 (UTC)

What about the other sources? How come two sources are overruled by one? Lazarbeem (talk) 17:58, 24 September 2026 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster refers to the World War II definition but also lists a second definition. Betelgeuse X (talk) 19:04, 24 September 2026 (UTC)

Yes but what about the other two sources? Furthermore, how is a determined or reckless act defined here? This goes back to my problem with David Axe's example as he doesn't use either of those terms Lazarbeem (talk) 19:16, 24 September 2026 (UTC)

A Merriam-Webster definition is about as reliable as it gets when it comes to WP:RS for definitions of words or phrases.

You and the other unregistered editor clearly don't like David Axe for personal reasons, hence why you continually try to insert your own original research into this discussion. Betelgeuse X (talk) 05:36, 25 September 2026 (UTC)

I never said that I dislike David Axe, I'm just critical of his comparison to Banzai charges in this instance Lazarbeem (talk) 20:20, 25 September 2026 (UTC)

And you're free to be critical of whatever you want, you're not allowed to remove Wikipedia content because you personally disagree with it. TylerBurden (talk) 16:06, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

This isn't about disagreement, it's about David Axe's comparison not matching what a Banzai charge is Lazarbeem (talk) 11:58, 29 September 2026 (UTC)

It's a comparison, one that you evidently dislike very much, which is tough luck because it was published in WP:RS. At this point you're getting close to WP:BLUDGEONING yourself, since you are unable to base any of your arguments on actual policies but instead insist on telling us what is and isn't just like the anonymous editor whose cause you appear to have taken up. TylerBurden (talk) 17:03, 29 September 2026 (UTC)

I dislike the comparison because it's incorrect Lazarbeem (talk) 18:22, 29 September 2026 (UTC)

Kindly stop bludgeoning if you have no constructive, policy based input. TylerBurden (talk) 09:41, 30 September 2026 (UTC)

How is this WP:Bludgeoning if I'm noticing that a comparison made within the article is incorrect? I will drop this as I do not want to argue forever but I want to make it very clear:

-I am not the only editor who has raised concern about David Axe's comparison being used in the article due to how his example doesn't match what a Banzai charge is

-Per Wikipedia bludgeoning is: "someone attempts to force their point of view through a very high number of comments, such as contradicting every viewpoint that is different from their own." I am not doing that I am simply pointing how Axe's comparison is incorrect. And again, I am not the only editor who has done this judging from the talk page

-If I was attempting to force my own view I wouldn't have posted sources above Lazarbeem (talk) 13:03, 30 September 2026 (UTC)

It is bludgeoning because you are saying the same thing over and over again as if that will change reality, which is that the comparison is published WP:RS and your personal opinions are not. You should address your chronic habit of violating Wikipedia policies being pointed out by several experienced editors at ANI instead of providing even more evidence of you probably not being a good match for this website. TylerBurden (talk) 17:04, 30 September 2026 (UTC)

It isn't my personal opinion. That's why I posted the sources above which describe a Banzai charge as something that is solely infantry base.

However I just had an idea, why don't we keep the David Axe comparison but say something along the lines of "Despite some of these assaults including the use of Infantry Fighting Vehicles, Forbes writer David Axe has compared these Russian tactics to the Banzai charges that were used by the Imperial Japanese Army during the Second World War." That way the comparison is kept but the context of comparison is also added. Is this a good idea? Lazarbeem (talk) 17:34, 30 September 2026 (UTC)

No, you just don't get it. TylerBurden (talk) 09:41, 1 October 2026 (UTC)

Are you going to say why? Lazarbeem (talk) 15:42, 1 October 2026 (UTC)

Already have, there is a whole thread on WP:ANI on it as well, it's called "Lazarbeem's CT issues continue after avoiding sanctions".

Your editorialism isn't being inserted into this article because you can't handle a comparison (or apparently understand what one is). TylerBurden (talk) 16:27, 1 October 2026 (UTC)

He did, and it was published in WP:RS, which is why it is included. If after almost two years of consistently violating the very policy you are speaking of you are suddenly concerned about WP:DUE, then you should provide an equally reliable published source challenging his comparison, so far you have only made your own comments and tried to use Wikipedia as a source. TylerBurden (talk) 08:35, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

I published two above. I'll put them here: "The Japanese Lieutenant General Yoshitsugu Saito planned a banzai charge. This was the name Americans gave to the battle cry the Japanese would give when conducting an attack – Tennoheika Banzai, or Long live the Emperor. Banzai charges were large human wave attacks, with as many men as possible descending on the opposing force, hoping to cause confusion and possibly retreat."

Banzai Cliff was the Site of Hundreds of Suicides at the Battle of Saipan

"the site of the Japanese defenders' last "banzai" charge - a term used to refer to human wave attacks carried out by Japanese infantry units during the war"

One final push

I'll also add some more:

"The Japanese then staged a 'banzai charge.' Shouting and running, they came at the Americans with rifles and swords."

Hard Corps: Legends of the Marine Corps - Google Books (Page 88)

"banzai charge - a mass attack of troops without concern for casualties; originated by Japanese who accompanied it with yells of `banzai'"

Banzai charge - definition of banzai charge by The Free Dictionary

"a mass attack of troops without concern for casualties; originated by Japanese who accompanied it with yells of `banzai'"

Banzai charge - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

The same definition is also used for banzai attack

Banzai attack - Definition, Meaning & Synonyms | Vocabulary.com

Lazarbeem (talk) 16:43, 1 October 2026 (UTC)

Where's the mention of David Axe in any of these? TylerBurden (talk) 16:45, 1 October 2026 (UTC)

So you wanted a source that mentions David Axe and criticizes his comparison? Why didn't you just say that earlier? I was going off of definitions Lazarbeem (talk) 17:07, 1 October 2026 (UTC)

That's literally what has been asked since the start. "Then you should provide an equally reliable published source challenging his comparison, so far you have only made your own comments and tried to use Wikipedia as a source". TylerBurden (talk) 09:51, 2 October 2026 (UTC)

FYI, the "Washington Post" article actually seems to be a Bloomberg article:

"Russia's 'Human Wave Attacks' Are Another Step Into Hell"

Same author. Perhaps the WP temporarily carried it too.

Comment. It would be far better if the article used military expert sources rather than journalists for Russia use of "human wave attacks" in Ukraine. (The "Institute for the Study of War" article does this). (Hohum ^@) 22:16, 17 September 2026 (UTC)

My final post here

WP:BLUDGEON

Always rely on official military sources, reports from the war zone, and commentary by actual military experts. Here is a sample example from today's (18 September 2026) official Ukrainian military sources about how Russian infantry actually fights in drone warfare conditions (after drones made legacy warfare impossible): https://www.ukrinform.ua/rubric-ato/4165360-rosiani-namagautsa-pronikati-na-slobozansinu-nadmalimi-pihotnimi-grupami-tregubov.html (my own trans. to English from Ukrainian, summary at https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2026/09/18/8054052/

>In the South Slobozhansk and North Slobozhansk directions, Russian military is trying to find gaps in Ukrainian defense with the help of small and very small infantry groups, sometimes operating alone. This was announced on TV by the spokesman for the Joint Forces Group, Viktor Tregubov, an Ukrinform correspondent reports. (...) According to him, Russians are gradually reducing the numbers in such groups. While previously it was about half of squad [detachment, відділення - I'm using the NATO terminology equivalent "squad"/section, see the article Відділення (військова справа) at the Ukrainian Wikipedia], over the past year they have mainly used groups of two or three soldiers, and now there are cases of even one-man infiltration, he added. "The fewer people, the more chances to go unnoticed. The fewer people, the smaller the footprint they leave, the less noticeable they are," the spokesman explained.

Then then elaborates while comparing with with legacy warfare, which as I cited above in Kursk initially involved the platoon sized (stated at 20-30 in one quote here above, 30-40 in another) movement of North Koreans in, yes, completely normal (pre-drone) tactics, but who would be easily spotted by drones and attacked by artillery and FPVs (as the Ukrainian troops and commanders told in the sample quotes provided above), before they very quickly (just few weeks) fully adapted to the drone warfare. He also says why vehicles are very rarely used and Russian infantry is almost always used at footsoldiers (also due to drones, of course) - and no, infantry simply operating without vehicles is not "human waves", too, in case it anyone here has such an idea (and "waves of attack" is also completely unrelated, as to cover every doubt). As I explained, in detail and using actually reliable sources, the Russians pioneered the use of small groups in Wagner, and then Russian military abandoned battalion tactical groups in favour of the small groups, smaller and smaller, until going just alone now (and also gradually abandoned mechanised warfare, also due to drones). The small groups can't be possibly any smaller than 1, and obviously 1 man can't be any further from the concept of "human waves", too. But it's still cannon fodder, that is "meat", due to the infiltrators aka stormtroopers aka assault troops (there was a time when there are was some confusion with them being incorrectly conflated with the different concept of the sabotage-reconessaince groups, it's no longer a problem now) being disposable.

>Tregubov informed that Russian military is trying to pass unnoticed through a certain area where enemy drones are operating and reach a place where they can hide or find cover. "One person will sneak where 20 people will be very visible, where even three people will be more visible than one. That is why техніка [lit. 'machinery', meaning mechanised transportation] is not used on a large scale, because техніка is visible. One person can perform truly covert actions," he said.

He then elaborates further, but I'm not going "textwall", you can read yourself. Such articles (reliable, valuable) are just countless. Literally thousands, multiple every single day, in Ukrainian, in English, in other languages. There are more just today, too, like every day.

Here is another (English language) sample example from just today, about how Ukrainian positions that Russians are attacking look like, and how are they being attacked by the "meat" storm troops (no "melee [hand-to-hand] combat", as ever, of course): https://texty.org.ua/articles/118316/underground-cities-how-ukrainian-infantry-survive-under-fire/

>Lieutenant Colonel Roman Kovalov, commander of the motorized infantry battalion of the 43rd Separate Mechanized Brigade, explains how these "underground positions" are organized and defended. (...) "The enemy tries to get as close as possible because every one of their assault troops carries half an AT mine on his back," Roman Kovalov explains. "First, they force our troops underground with drone drops and FPV drones. Then, while the infantry are still recovering from the explosions, they run up to the entrance, throw the mine inside, and quickly retreat. An explosion that powerful will usually either bury the soldiers completely under the rubble or destroy the position from the inside".

You need to rely on such plentiful, authoritative, often first-hand, always first-rate sources. They were easily available thought almost the entire war (except the chaos and confusion of February 22). Absolutely instead the supposedly "due" uninformed, sensationalist, worthless garbage of "opinion" articles by some foreign civilians (random civilians - not actual military experts) looking at unspecified videos on the internet while not knowing much if anything about warfare and real military terminology, and also the Ukrainian/Russian language and slang (as with 'meat' being mistranslated as 'human wave'[*]), and writing stupid nonsense, or just them mindlessly repeating after each other. (And not only in this article here, in all articles.)

I'm going to leave it to @Lazarbeem: as I think he understands the issue well (he did point out problems correctly in his list).

[*]Which unfortunately I even once saw in a Kyiv Independent reportage from Chasiv Yar, where the phrase "meat tactics" (м'ясна тактика) as spoken by a soldier being interviewed in Ukrainian magically became "human waves" in English subtitles. Ukrainians do often internalise Western errors in military terminology, such them absolutely commonly saying/writing "shrapnel" incorrectly in English to mean fragments/shards, even as it's fragments/shards (уламки, осколки) in Ukrainian and they never wrongly call it "шрапнел" in Ukrainian, or in Russian for that matter (unless some began now after the continuous exposure to the rampant English language misuse, but it's still not at all in the Ukrainian language media at least).

So anyway here's what Google Gemini (Chrome AI mode) says when given the phrase м'ясна тактика (meat tactics) in an English translation via Google Translate (left unchanged here besides my comments in brackets, the "modern context" here separately):

>"Meat tactics" (or "meat assaults") [orig. «М'ясна тактика» (або «м'ясні штурми»)] is a derogatory term for a military strategy involving a massive, continuous infantry offensive against enemy positions—conducted without adequate fire support, armored vehicles, or proper soldier training. [1, 2] The primary goal of such tactics is to exhaust the enemy's defenses, force the expenditure of ammunition, expose firing points, or break through the front line—solely at the cost of massive personnel casualties. [1, 2] Key characteristics and operational mechanisms: "Meat" infiltration: Command deliberately sends dozens or hundreds of soldiers "wave after wave" so that at least one or a few fighters might advance and secure a new position. [1] Disregard for life: Military leadership treats soldiers as expendable resources ("cannon fodder") [orig. гарматного м'яса, "cannon meat" - I talked about it many times, about being "meat" mistranslated as "human waves" while really meaning "cannon fodder", just as translates it here by Google Translate]. Such assaults often involve poorly trained conscripts, prisoners, or troops used as "disposable infantry." [1, 2, 3] Exposing firing positions: The initial waves of assault troops are virtually guaranteed to perish; however, their deaths force the defenders to open fire, allowing the attackers' artillery or drones to pinpoint and subsequently strike those defensive positions. [1] Relentless pressure: Assaults occur continuously, denying defenders the opportunity to rest, rotate troops, or replenish ammunition supplies.

>Modern Context (Russo-Ukrainian War) This term came into widespread use during the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine. The Russian army actively employed this tactic during the assaults on Bakhmut (particularly involving the Wagner PMC) and Avdiivka, as well as on the Pokrovsk and other fronts. [1, 2, 3] Russian forces often shift to "micro-group" tactics [orig. тактики «мікрогруп»] —advancing in small infantry units of 2–4 personnel under the cover of guided aerial bombs (KABs) and FPV drones. However, the essence remains the same: achieving territorial gains at the cost of massive human losses, which are replenished through continuous forced or contract-based mobilization. [1, 2, 3]

Sources of the Gemini definition:

• https://www.ukr.net/news/details/russianaggression/119444825.html
• https://glavcom.ua/columns/vandrusiv/mjasna-stratehija-peremohi-putina-1004326.html
• https://v-variant.com.ua/na-pokrovskomu-napriamku-vorogh-zastosovuie-miasnu-taktiku-shturmiv-i-pratsiuie-pikhota-odnodienki/
• https://www.unian.ua/war/konveyer-smerti-analitiki-rozpovili-pro-cikavu-taktiku-rosiyan-na-fronti-12574596.html
• https://war.telegraf.com.ua/ukr/war-in-ukraine/2024-03-15/5840370-eto-myasnaya-taktika-no-kak-okkupanty-dobivayutsya-uspekha-v-boyakh

Bete:

>In an interview with Current Time on the front lines of Bakhmut, one Ukrainian soldier described the horrors of Russia’s frontal assaults. “The Russian soldiers face certain death in these attacks, but they are not retreating,” he commented. “You can shoot his head off, but his comrade will keep coming. Their own commanders will kill them if they don’t attack.”"

This is also by the very definition just cannon fodder - once again. There's nothing there about any "human waves", which is a very specific concept (a densely concentrated great mass of people running ahead), and all about the м'ясна тактика. I'm going to once again remind you of the actual English Wikipedia definition of human wave attack:

>A human wave attack, also known as a human sea attack, is an offensive infantry tactic in which an attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders by engaging in melee combat. The name refers to the concept of a coordinated mass of soldiers falling upon an enemy force and sweeping them away with sheer weight and momentum, like an ocean wave breaking on a beach.

(And yes, this definition still links to melee combat, a form of mock combat at medieval tournaments, instead of the proper hand-to-hand combat. Even after I pointed it out more than once.)

Oh, and also @Salfanto: and @Dauzlee: (and everyone else): No, Ukrainians also NEVER engaged in any human wave attacks in this conflict. And no, it's not merely "dismounted infantry attacks on foot with light arms" (just absolutely normal light infantry tactics), nor "a meat grinder in Bakhmut, sending wave after wave of troops to face opposition fire" or "pointless assaults that gave only slight tactical gains without artillery support, leading to senseless death" (again cannon fodder, by it's very definition), nor anything else that is in fact human wave attacks. A very specific concept.

I'll give you sample examples of other definitions. A short one:

• Human Wave: An infantry technique used to attack and overwhelm an enemy defensive position. Successive waves of armed troops are lined up parallel to one another at regular intervals. As the attack begins, the lines of troops surge forward. The first few waves are usually cut down by enemy fire and the lines of soldiers behind them fill in the gaps, pick up dropped weapons, and press on with the attack. This attack method tends to overwhelm the defensive position, since there is never a break or lull in the fighting; sooner or later the attacking force arrives at and breaches the defensive position. If the defending troops don't run out of ammunition first, their weapons overheat from constant firing and eventually freeze up. Despite the blood and carnage, human waves have been used by battling military forces throughout history, including the Napoleonic Wars, the American Civil War, World Wars I and II, and the Vietnam War. https://books.google.com/books?id=wrYuEQAAQBAJ&pg=PA310

A long one:

• Human wave attack is an offensive infantry tactic, in which an attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun the defenders by engaging in melee combat. According to U.S. Army analyst Edward C. O'Dowd, the technical definition of a human wave attack tactic is a frontal assault by densely concentrated infantry formations against an enemy line, without any attempts to shield or to mask the attacker's movement. The goal of a human wave attack is to maneuver as many men as possible into close range, hoping that the shock from a large mass of attackers engaged in melee combat would force the enemy to disintegrate or fall back. The human wave attack's reliance on melee combat usually makes the skills of individual soldiers irrelevant, but it requires either great physical courage, coercion, or esprit de corps for the attackers to advance into enemy fire. However, when matched against modern weaponry such as automatic firearms, artillery and aircraft, a human wave attack is an extremely dangerous and costly tactic in the face of devastating firepower. Thus, for the human wave attack to succeed on the modern battlefield, it is imperative for the attackers to charge into the enemy line in the shortest time and in the greatest numbers possible, so that a sufficient mass can be preserved when the attackers reach melee range. However, this solution usually means that the attackers must sacrifice concealment and cover for numbers and speed. Because of this trade-off, human wave attacks are normally used by an attacker with a lack of tactical training, or one who lacks firepower and the ability to maneuver, but whose main advantage is motivating and controlling their men. The term "human wave attack" has been used to describe the infantry assault tactics used by several armed forces around the world. These included European armies during World War I, Imperial Japanese Army and Soviet Red Army during World War II, Chinese People's Liberation Army during the Korean War, Vietnamese insurgents during the Indochina Wars, and Iranian Basij during the Iran-Iraq War. https://books.google.com/books?id=l_6pCQAAQBAJ&pg=PA159

The unrelated concept of Russian cannon fodder (meat) tactics/strategy, from the first links from the Gemini list above (skipping the second, "Meat: Putin's victory strategy", which is written by a civilian):

• Kostyantyn Melnikov, press officer of the 24th separate mechanized brigade named after King Danylo, told about this on the air of Army TV. "In the 24th Brigade's line of responsibility, we are not particularly aware of the change in tactics. This continues to be a tactic, so to speak, of meat infiltration, when in order for at least one occupier to advance somewhere in some, conditionally, further areas, their command is ready to invest dozens of its personnel", — said Kostyantyn Melnikov.

• The enemy's tactics are now "meat". Maksym Bakulin, press officer of the 14th brigade of the National Guard of Ukraine "Chervona Kalyna", said this on the air of "Apostrophe TV" on July 12, reports Suspilne (https://suspilne.media/donbas/1065143-ihni-sili-na-pokrovskomu-napramku-perevazaut-sili-moei-brigadi-u-dekilka-raziv-recnik-14-brigadi-ngu/). "The Russian troops have so many forces that they do not have time to train the infantry. Their specialists are well trained and work, and the infantry are 'one-day'. Their forces outnumber us, precisely in the area of responsibility of my brigade, several times", says the press officer. The situation in the area did not change for several weeks: "Currently, the weather conditions and the 'green' [i.e. vegetation, used for concealment in stealth movement] contribute to offensive actions, because it is difficult to detect the enemy, a large number of reconnaissance and attack drones are needed. The enemy's tactics are now 'meat', they take their replenishments, divide them into categories, someone is better equipped, who can lead more offensive actions, and others who can't, those are sent to 'meat' as bait to lure out our firepower and FPV attack drones, and while we destroy this group, the one more equipped and trained has reached our position. It's all under fire from artillery and a lot of drones. Any tactic that brings success to the enemy, they scale it. I'm talking about scooters, they tried, they succeeded and now we see that there are a very large number of them. The terrain is smashed so that it is almost impossible to drive there with equipment, so the enemy takes a scooter, where you can drive, the enemy goes, where it is not possible to drive — takes a scooter on his back and walks."

As I mentioned, such articles are countless and many are posted daily.

--~2026-45482-86 (talk) 18:47, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

Updated North Korea section

Just wanted to make it clear that the update to the North Korea subsection has nothing to do with... whatever is going on above me on this page. I just saw that it was still largely based on the early reporting. By now there have been several analyses that concluded that NK forces adapted (these have been provided as new citations). Also, updated with more recent casualty estimates. Just-a-can-of-beans (talk) 22:51, 18 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

I was supposed to quit already, but I just saw this so let me add regarding the North Koreans precisely: They only used only perfectly normal tactics of legacy warfare (pre-drone warfare, now suddenly completely outdated) for elite shock troops light infantry. What they adapted to was drone warfare (aka modern warfare).

Here is Ukraine's official United24 English state information service, citing American media, in turn based on Ukrainian military sources (a sort of circular reporting): "North Korea Is Quickly Evolving Tactics While Fighting Alongside Russian Forces Against Ukraine" (https://united24media.com/latest-news/north-korea-is-quickly-evolving-tactics-while-fighting-alongside-russian-forces-against-ukraine-7466)

>North Korea adapted their fighting tactics after their first clashed with Ukrainian forces in the Kursk region, The Wall Street Journal reported in an article published on April 8. (https://www.wsj.com/world/north-korea-russia-ukraine-combat-experience-3e043838 - it goes in a much greater detail of course, but I'll use the U24 summary) The pivotal battles in the Kursk region, from which Ukraine’s army has largely withdrawn, highlight how North Korean forces swiftly adapted their previously outdated tactics. (...) [WSJ] notes that the initial engagements on the battlefield in December were conducted in large groups, without support from artillery, drones, or armored vehicles, making them easy targets for Ukrainian defenders. By February, their large numbers, physical endurance, and determination to advance under fire were paired with enhanced tactical awareness, such as moving in smaller groups. (...) [WSJ] brings out one example of rapid adaptation, which is North Korea’s response to drones. When drones were first deployed, the North Koreans simply observed them, not recognizing the threat. But they quickly adapted, learning tactics to avoid or destroy the drones. To minimize losses from Ukrainian drone attacks, the North Koreans learned to flank, with one group engaging in the attack while another struck from the rear, according to documents.

No mention of any "human waves", of course. Just "outdated tactics", including moving in (relatively) large groups due to initially limited "tactical awareness" as they were only learning drone warfare (which they learnt very fast and very well, but that's even beyond the point - the point being their initial tactics, completely normal tactics). Their initial painful setbacks were due to the drones, detecting them and striking them (or directing accurate artillery fire on them, an unmentioned above but very big issue) while without the drones changing warfare completely they could not be even seen by the enemy. That was their problem with "tactical awareness" - the enemy being always aware of them, due to observation drones (being hit by strike drones is only an addition to that). "Smaller groups" (smaller than their initial platoons usually, very occasionally companies) helped avoid the detection and also to limit losses from drone strikes (the article also mentions the latter aspect elsewhere).

Here is an example of a Western military expert source ("Michael  Aldeman is a US Marine Corps Reserve Captain [that] serves as an innovator for the Marine Innovation Unit, which helps the US Marine Corps leverage dual-use technologies for military application"): https://www.38north.org/2026/04/drones-and-operational-shift-north-koreas-adaptation-to-a-changing-warfare-environment/

>In the initial phases of this deployment, North Korean troops were frequently labeled as inexperienced fighters—with many referring to them as “cannon fodder” resulting in high-casualty operations. However, recent assessments suggest a different picture and may indicate adaptation in real time, where North Korean troops appear to have identified gaps in their own counter-UAS capabilities. (...) They also appear to have adopted advanced camouflaging methods and rapid redeployment strategies consistent with Ukrainian drone operations.

"Cannon fodder", as I explained repeatedly and in detail, is the very same term as the Ukrainian word "meat", it doesn't translate as "human wave" and it doesn't mean "human wave". On the North Korean (brief) usage of what is apply termed as simply "traditional formations" (of light infantry in legacy warfare), and the subsequent adaptation to drone warfare (modern warfare) by moving away from the platoon-based system:

>Another significant observable adjustment appears to be the North Korean units’ shift toward small, more agile formations, as opposed to larger, traditional formations. This evolution suggests the ability of DPRK forces to adapt to modern ISR capabilities that come as a result of advanced drone warfighting

From the already quoted NPR article, "North Koreans fighting for Russia against Ukraine have grown skilled in drone warfare" (https://www.npr.org/2025/06/16/g-s1-71531/north-korea-soldiers-russia-ukraine-war-drones), specifically about how it was about their sudden and instant leap to drone warfare:

>"They went from using World War II tactics to managing on the battlefield with drones," Capt. Oleh Shyriaiev, commander of the 225th Separate Assault Brigade, told NPR. "And they learned very quickly."

"WWII" is a hyperbole, of course (another Ukrainian commander cited in the article talked of "1980", as I quoted him earlier, which is also a hyperbole). In any case they went through a crash course from whatever era (doesn't matter, all legacy warfare is just that) to exactly 2024 and indeed they did so "very quickly".

And so on, plentiful even just in English (many Ukrainian, Korean, and other sources too). Like this new BBC article from just this week: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cgl7zrnxxy6o

>"They're still there", said Dr Yang Uk, research fellow at the Asan Institute for Policy Studies, Center for Foreign Policy and National Security in Seoul. (...) Yang continued, "North Korean soldiers are very brave I mean, especially those of Storm Corps. They are willing to die for their country. But the problem is that passion doesn't mean efficient combat skills... [They suffered] a lot of bloodshed in the early stage of the Kursk campaign, but they learned the lessons of modern drone warfare."

It's these developments that should be talked about in cannon fodder and/or drone warfare (maybe they are in the latter, actually I didn't check), besides the articles about the North Korean intervention or North Korean forces generally. Not here, as there were no "human wave attacks", there was just legacy warfare on one side. For a short while, until it wasn't. Because now they know modern warfare much more than the South Koreans do.

Which is actually very important, unlike silly legends of "human wave attacks". From the U24 article:

>Dorothy Camille Shea, the Deputy US Ambassador to the UN, has previously warned that North Korea’s involvement in the war against Ukraine provides its forces with valuable combat experience.

Or from once again the same NPR article, citing it once more:

>That also worries South Korea. If the Ukraine war continues and North Korea commits more troops, their battleground knowledge could pose a threat to South Korea, says Cha Du Hyeogn, a former intelligence adviser to the South Korean government who is vice president of the Asan Institute for Policy Studies in Seoul. "The more North Korean soldiers are trained in drone warfare, the more the risk rises that they could use these war skills in Korea," he says.

And many other such statements that you can easily find. Because this is the actually important issue. Besides being an actually real one.

Leaving for real! --~2026-45482-86 (talk) 04:26, 19 September 2026 (UTC)

Yeah no. There is video footage of North Korean infantry running across open fields en masse while under fire when they were initially deployed.

You have been repeatedly warned about violating Wikipedia policies on bludgeoning and this is another instance of it. Just-a-can-of-beans (talk) 20:40, 23 September 2026 (UTC)

Official Ukrainian definition of "meat assault" and more about the confusion on this article (also a non-controversial edit request)

Text wall

To the "Yeah no" guy - I regret notifying you. Thus I'm not replying to you. Don't reply to me.

As I said repeatedley, the "human wave or human sea" described in the definition of yhis article hete is NOT a merely any normal infantry tactics of a platoon-size attack. Ukrainians fittingly didn't call these "human wave attacks", they just called this "cannon fodder assaults" ("meat assaults"), too, the same as Russian ones (or their own, for that matter - actually I'll write about that). Ironically, this (English Wikipedia) article here uses the Soviet/Russian/Ukrainian deregatory term the "meat assault" tactic (here also being translated as "meatstorm", evoking a lurid imagery, while "meat" is just what all the Slavic languages say instead of the French/English "fodder" in the term cannon fodder, and it's only "storm" as in "assault".

But you really don't need to take my word for anything. Here's a paper by the Deputy Head of the Department of Tactical and Special Disciplines of the Bohdan Khmelnytskyi National Academy of the State Border Service of Ukraine titled "Tactics of Assault Units of the Russian Forces." https://periodica.nadpsu.edu.ua/index.php/military_tech/article/download/2018/2041/7646 They officially define it as follows:

• "The 'meat assault' tactic aims at the advancement of small enemy groups with the gradual displacement of the Ukrainian Defense Forces from their positions and consolidating on them." ("Тактика «м’ясний штурм» має на меті просування малих груп противника з поступовим витісненням підрозділів СОУ із зайнятих позицій і закріпленням на них.")

The paper elaborates (I'm skipping the covert preparations for the meat assault):

• "It involves the covert accumulation of personnel (usually up to a platoon's worth), ammunition, and supplies in the direction of planned operations. (...) At the same time, they conduct artillery preparation for the assault, utilizing strike UAVs and air strikes to destroy defensive positions and exert psychological pressure on our units. An assault group typically consists of 7–8 soldiers (roughly the size of a squad). Contract soldiers with combat experience are appointed as leaders, while the rest of the group may be composed of mobilized personnel, often drawn from the temporarily occupied territories. Such fighters are frequently viewed as "expendable." A machine gunner is an essential member of the group. Prior to the main assault, a smaller team of 2–3 soldiers conducts a reconnaissance-in-force to pinpoint the positions of the Ukrainian Defense Forces. Afterwards, it withdraws, while another small group stealthily advances toward the identified position and takes cover. Meanwhile, the position comes under fire, and two other groups of 2–3 personnel launch an assault from the flanks. The concealed group attempts a frontal attack. If the position is not captured on the first attempt, the attacks are repeated until the objective is achieved."

Do you underdtand now?

This is the ACTUAL OFFICIAL DEFINITION of the term "meat assault"! They're, of course (I talked about SO much) "meat" (fodder) because they're treated as "expendable". This should be totally obvious, after I explained it already, but here you have it in a definition.

The paper covered the period of 2022-2024, the same when the English Wikipedia arricle claims the imaginary"human wave attacks" were supposedly rampant. Other types of Russian assaults are listed as the following (just the first sentences of their definitions):

1. The tactic of a sudden, localised armoured offensive is employed when it is necessary to assault distant positions, when a concealed approach is unavailable, or when the tactical situation is disadvantageous. [Now vanishingly rare, and always failed. Drone warfare aka modern warfare now makes mechanised offensives totally impossible.]
2. The "infiltration" tactic is employed when defending units of the Security and Defense Forces have effectively organized their fire systems, anti-tank defenses, and electronic warfare capabilities—as well as the use of various types of unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs)—and when enemy infantry has the opportunity to covertly approach our positions.
3. Tactic of pre-positioning assault groups. [You can read the full definition. It's elaborate and complex stealthy small group attacks.]
4. Tactics in urban terrain. [Also elaborate and complex and stealthy.]
5. Tactics for the use of motorized vehicles. [Rapid mobile small groups using cars and motorcycles. Not stealthy, but not on foot.
6. Tactics for using chemical munitions. [Small groups + chemical attacks by drones.]

You know what is not listed? The "human waves" garbage total nonsense. Now that you have the "meat assault" concept OFFICIALLY defined, compare to the stupidity of the Wikipedia human wave attack article:

• A human wave attack, also known as a human sea attack,[1] is an offensive infantry tactic in which an attacker conducts an unprotected frontal assault with densely concentrated infantry formations against the enemy line, intended to overrun and overwhelm the defenders by engaging in melee combat. The name refers to the concept of a coordinated mass of soldiers falling upon an enemy force and sweeping them away with sheer weight and momentum, like an ocean wave breaking on a beach. (...) In February 2026, the BBC released interviews with Russian soldiers who described their commanders sending waves of what Russian soldiers call "meat storms" at Ukrainian positions, with one of the soldiers describing an instance where 200 soldiers in his regiment were killed in three days.[62] In May 2026, an article from The Telegraph said the use of the "meat grinder" strategy was being phased out in favour of using smaller, slow, concealed infiltration units that push through gaps in Ukrainian front-line positions and regroup behind Ukrainian lines. According to the Critical Threats Project, infiltration tactics have been more effective than the "meat grinder" tactics.[63]"

In reality, the "meat assaults" (or "meet storms") ARE the "smaller, slow, concealed infiltration units". THIS is the "meat grinder strategy". As ofificially defined by Ukraine above. But not only that.

Informal usage and Ukrainian "meat assaults"=

Here's a sample example how Ukraianin military in the field amorw colloquially define a meat assault in its "literal meaning": "The phrase 'meat assault' takes on a literal meaning: 'Pomst' told how they destroy the enemy in the Lyman direction" https://v-variant.com.ua/fraza-miasnii-shturm-nabuvaie-bukvalnogho-znachiennia-u-pomsti-rozpovili-chim-znishchuiut-vorogha-na-limanskomu-napriamku-2/

• In the Lyman direction, in the Donetsk region, the Ukrainian Defense Forces continue to deter enemy attacks and eliminate the enemy during so-called "meat assaults." [так званих "м'ясних штурмів"] This was stated by Yevhen Svyrydenko, deputy chief of staff of the border commandant's rapid response fire support of the "Pomsta" brigade. The enemy continues to storm in small groups: "The enemy acts in his classic method: he sends small tactical groups, five to seven people, who make attempts to break through to the first line and gain a foothold. [the interview on ICTV (Ukraine): https://youtube.com/watch?v=v_hgVy3tUZM)

Are you actually going to die on a hill that such "classic method" of "small groups" 5-7 men in "meat assaults" (direct translation: cannon fodder assaults) in the "literal meaning" are the same as "human waves, also known human sea" (from the definition of "human wave attacks" here) because some Western dilletantes mistranslated it so and stated an idiotic game of telephone in the West (not in Ukraine)?

And now, something I promised - the subject of Ukrainian "meat assaults". Here's now for example what the Ukrainian national hero Bohdan Krotevych wrote just this week:

• "Delyatitsky is Sodol's legacy, who should be held accountable both for Mariupol and for Krynky. The Marine Corps deserves a normal commander who will care for them and provide what is necessary for conducting combat operations, rather than boasting about grinding them down in meat assaults [мʼясних штурмах] with 30 percent equipment." https://x.com/BohdanKrotevych/status/2103127436015645002

What Krotechych, acclaimed Azov commander who was the chief of staff of the defense of Mariupol, allege here is that these (named) Ukrainian Marines generals have been treating their men as cannon fodder. Which he says was criminal conduct and they should be punished. But it's not "human wave" anything, even if they were sometimes sent as platoons too. (Platoons used to be "small groups" just several years ago, before the age of modern warfare, also known as drone warfare.)

You can ask just go and ask him. You can ask a plenty of Ukrainian commanders and press officers and intelligence officers, you can ask them directly and you can do it easily. It's not some ancient history that you need contemporary middlemen to decipher what the long-dead people meant when they wrote something. You don't need some dilletante Western civilians, who don't understand military terms, to mistranslate and "explain" what the Ukrainians (or Russians) "actually" mean. You can just simply ask the Ukrainians if you're in a doubt. Or else just read/listen to what they write/say, but stop ignoring the Ukrainians say about Ukraine.

So, yes, indeed there are allegations by the Ukrainians regarding the Ukrainian armed forces conducting "meat assaults" (cannon fodder assaults), too. For an example, and also to show you how a "meat assault" does NOT even has to involve foot infantry whatsoever:

• Slidstvo.Info (has no English Wikipedia article despite how should have one, but it's headed by Anna Babinets, who has hers): "Since January 27, 2026, the Military Ombudsman's office has received more than 4,000 complaints in the interests of servicemen. The largest number of complaints were made against the 425th Separate Assault Regiment "Skelya", which recently found itself at the center of a scandal - the command was accused of alleged "meat assaults" [«мʼясних штурмах»]." https://www.slidstvo.info/news/ombudsmanka-otrymala-naybilshe-skarh-vid-viyskovykh-ta-ikhnikh-rodychiv-na-polk-skelia-vidpovid-na-zapyt/

The "accused" there is a link to the telegram post by top Ukrainian military expert and the Defence Ministry advisor, Serhii Sternenko, who wrote about something that wasn't even an infantry attack at all. As you can both read and see there, the incident in question was an attack by an armoured column (an Abrams tank and a couple IFVs), which was destroyed by FPVs while on a road - the "meaty" thing was "sending a column to assault" in the conditions of "total drone dominance" (aka drone warfare, aka modern wafare), which of course is now impossible: https://t.me/ssternenko/56937 Sternenko writes: "What they do to people in some units is no better than Russian practices."

Again, they do NOT mean in such instances any sensationalist dumb bullshit of "human wave attacks" (or anything foot infantry activity AT ALL, as in there) when they say "meat assault". Be it by Russians, or Koreans, or in such cases - Ukrainians. The concept of meat assault is simply ENTIRELY unrelated. This term, as I said so many time already, literally and directly means just cannon fodder (and they sometimes do say "cannon meat" in full two words, but usually just "meat"). Or rather drone fodder, in the mentioned modern warfare conditions of "total drone dominance" (Sternenko's term).

A "meat assault" in a more informal use, besides the official and narrow Ukrainian definition cited above (a small-group gradual infiltration attack with massive support), can also be:

1. Russian (or Korean), or Ukrainian.
2. On feet, or not.
3. Stealthy, or not.
4. It can be (or involve, alongside flanking) a frontal attack, or not.
5. It can be 1 man, or 2-3 men, or a squad, or a platoon (like the Koreans, initially - 20-40), or "even" more.

All of this is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the absolutely simple (perceived, deregatory) concept of "cannon fodder" (in English and Ukrainian languages, "cannon meat", or just "meat"). Click the link cannon fodder and read the definition.

And all of which has NOTHING to do with the (very narrow and specific) concept of a human wave attack. Including but not limited the complete absence of any 'melee" (hand-to-hand) combat. A single duel aside, knives (not fixed bayonets, this concept just doesn't exist there at all) have been ONLY ever used for murdering prisoners, or sometimes for suicides (not just Koreans).

Koreans and Ukrainians aside, here's a 2024 Texty article specifically about what they meant by "meat assaults" back at Bakhmut. I explained Bakhmut/Wagner already but I go back to it to explains the infamously issue of "shovels": https://texty.org.ua/fragments/113130/chomu-rosiyany-ohoche-vmyrayut-u-myasnyh-shturmah-i-chynyat-samohubstva-na-poli-boyu-poglyad/ ("meat assaults" in the article title, and the "myasnyh-shturmah" in the url).

Note not only just how it mentions the Wagnerites did have a plenty of artillery and air ("KABs") support for their attacks in the small groups of 10-15 successful infiltrators (from the original groups of 30-40, that is just a platoon, a standard basic infantry unit that can't be any sort of "human sea" anything no matter how it's used), which is normal in Ukrainian depictions of the actual Wagner tactics at Bakhmut, but especially how they would be coming in only the smallest-possible groups of just 2 (two) men to dig in with shovels under fire if an initial assault failed. It was precisely the latter tactics that the British intelligence meant in their infamous "only with shovels" line, which the dilletantes in the sensationalist Western press articles would pick up to paint a lurid image of "human wave attacks armed only with shovels". All of which (including pairs of men being sent with shovels merely to only dig) can't be possibly any more different from "human wave attack aka human sea attack" from the English Wikipedia definition, or really any definition for that matter.

And you need to understand that such and similar articles (videos, Ukrainian television content, military reports) are COUNTLESS. As I said, and I mean it, you should learn to start using the Ukrainian sources to write about Ukraine. It's not some war between ancient civilizations where everyone is long dead and now archeologists try to piece things together. It's happening in real time and with global communication. They're more and not less reliable, or "due", than some civilian dilletante in America writing an "opinion" article about things he knows nothing about after just watching some unspecified "videos" on the internet, and everyone repeating the imagined nonsense of "human wave attacks, also called meat assaults" after him in a game of telephone.

Also I see the human wave attack article lead summary STILL claims "melee combat", as if the participants of a human wave attack would really have to engage in medieval tournament mock combat (ironically that's something like be an odd chance recently described by the Ukrainian 413th Regiment RAID in https://x.com/Raid_413/status/2094328753874776072 where they talked about their participation in just this activity medieval tournament activities), no one changed it to the proper hand-to-hand combat, despite me having talked about it repeatedly.

Request(s)

So here I formally request to change this idiocy to a proper link.

How is it even possible that no one did it even after I pointe dit out REPEATEDLY?

Also, I will again remind that the notable concept of "meat" in this context absolutely should be added to the English Wikipedia article cannon fodder. After deleting all of this misinformation about the real modern warfare tactics over here, of course.

Or even write a separate about meat assault if you really want. You can use the official definition here above. I could do it, actually.

Meanwhile, actually READ what I wrote to behin with. Clearly you haven't been reading.my arguments and explanations at all, otherwise you would have corrected this just incredibly stupid melee combat link from the lead summary. --~2026-49665-19 (talk) 18:34, 26 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:TEXTWALL Please communicate in a way that is more concise. Scroll up on this talk page and ask yourself if anyone would want to read all that. It is rude to be overly verbose. grapesurgeon (talk) 15:05, 27 September 2026 (UTC)

WP:BLUDGEON

A person here demanded I post "cited rebuttals" so I do. And I only provide sample examples, I could post MANY and not just a handful.

Summary:

In this post I cited the writings of

• the Deputy Head of the Department of Tactical and Special Disciplines of the Bohdan Khmelnytskyi National Academy of the State Border Service of Ukraine defining and explaining the 7 types of Russian 'novelty' assault tactics of 2022-2024 (now it's almost only infiltration by 1-3 men), including the so-called "meat assault" (which meant a mostly-stealth attack by a squad of mostl "disposable" infantry divided into teams and trying to find and flank-attack the Ukrainian positions, and which has nothing with "human wave/human sea" whatsoever - it's detailed above, "covertly" and "stealthily" are direct quotes, and they were supported by heavy weapons, drones, and air power to suppress and demoralise the defenders before the assault),
• by the Azov hero commander Bohdan Krotevych, and by the Ukrainian government advisor Serhii Sternenko, talking about "meat assaults" in the more informal sense, and in particular about Ukrainian alleged "meat assaults - the loose definition involves any form of offensive action by any forces or any type or size, the ONLY thing needed is just that such force is supposedly treated as "disposable" by their command (such as an Ukrainian armoured column being destroyed by drones on a road or the Ukrainian Marines as "meat" being "grinded" while defending the Krynky bridgehead in their specific examples - simply speaking, just anything where the command allegedly doesn't care about lives)
• and a more 'random' Ukrainian seviceman also explained the Bakhmut 'only with shovels' confusion from the early 2023. These were not attacks, it was just pairs of convicts being sent to dig without weapons where assaults failed (if they were hit, another pair was sent). Something like the unarmed kill zone "runners" now, if anyone here even knows what I talk about (if not: https://x.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/2023322073024565430).

End of summary

Listen to the Ukrainians. Yes, Ukrainian military experts ARE more reliable, and more "due", then the Western civilian dilettantes who played an idiotic game of telephone about imaginary "human wave attacks".

Which are NOT "meat assaults", a completely unrelated concept of small groups of supposedly "disposable" forces. Disposable forces being known in Ukrainian and Russian (and other Slavic languages) as "cannon meat" and in English as "cannon fodder" (as in the definition at the Wikipedia article cannon fodder too).

The Wikipedia article here falsely pretends that the "meat assault" and "human wave attack" are synonyms, and "infiltration" is an antonym, and then adds that "small groups" is somehow a mid-2026 novelty. The "meat assaults" were also small group infiltration attacks (in the narrow definition in military science, not the other "any cannon fodder in any situation" broad/loose colloquial meaning) - just by supposedly "disposable" troops aka cannon fodder/meat (now "small group" means only 2-3, if not 1, while back then "small group" meant a squad, tactically divided further). The actual novelty of 2026 is the standardisation and broad use of the lone infiltrators, not any groups at all ("runners" go even further back).

At least you did correct the "melee combat" idiocy from the lead at long last.

--~2026-49665-19 (talk) 13:36, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

Again, be more concise. grapesurgeon (talk) 14:07, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

No, the WP:BLUDGEONING by this individual has gone on long enough, given that they are apparently unable to follow through on their own statements of stopping I have requested protection for the page as this goes well beyond disruption at this point. TylerBurden (talk) 16:00, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

I'm ok with that grapesurgeon (talk) 16:02, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

@TylerBurden I see the RFPP got declined. Maybe another ANI thread? The comment spamming from the user is ridiculous, also they're doing personal attacks ("Do you people have ADHD?") grapesurgeon (talk) 00:00, 29 September 2026 (UTC)

Extended content

Do you people have ADHD? I can not just find, and read, AND summarise FOR YOU (even in short versions when asked) and then you can't be bothered to read even that, and complain about that? What even constitutes yous research, really just reading headlines alone if you can't read even a couple short paragraphs in a minute? But I just spent hours of my time finding and then BRIEFLY summarising, and explaining where needed, and then editing the whole thing and rewriting again, the official Ukrainian military report on the real Wagner tactics and not Western hallucinations https://armyinform.com.ua/2023/03/07/taktyka-dij-zagoniv-vagnerivcziv-ne-rahuvatys-iz-vtratamy/ so imagine this is my "cited rebuttal" instead in the "really concise" version: "https://armyinform.com.ua/2023/03/07/taktyka-dij-zagoniv-vagnerivcziv-ne-rahuvatys-iz-vtratamy/ (the end)". Better now? I hope you are satisfied, for now nothing is quoted, nothing is summarised, nothing is explained, you can read yourself the entire thing (which you actually should always, anyway and regardless).

And what I wrote below was originally several times longer. It included what Ukrainians officially say about North Koreans and a lot of other Bakhmut era military press release style materials but I just deleted most of it, even before I saw you complaining about only a few short paragraphs (which I made deliberatly extremely short) in your "reply" of "tldr again, lol". I'm really done with you (plural you), I've wasted so much time and effort in my best faith for absolutely nothing, not even being read at all.

I'll perhaps write an article about the real Russian assault tactics in Ukraine (or "infantry tactics" similar, this title I just invented right now) and its going to be based only on the Ukrainian military sources and the Ukrainian experts. You're not invited.

--~2026-49665-19 (talk) 23:37, 28 September 2026 (UTC)

More on the actual Wagner tactics, this time the official Ukrainian military report

WP:BLUDGEON

I'll start with a simple example as an intro.

• Serhiy Cherevatyi, spokesman for the Eastern Group of Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (aka Operational Command East), in May 2023 about the Wagner tactics at Bakhmut:

https://24tv.ua/bahmut-sogodni-golovnoyu-taktikoyu-vagnerivtsiv-ye-pihotniy-val_n2308677 Quote: "The tactic remains, because in principle this is their main method – small tactical groups, especially in urban areas. Otherwise, you really can't fight there, because large groups are more noticeable, especially in conditions of mass use of UAVs for surveillance. That's why they move in small groups"

I'll remind you how the English Wikipedia article here pretends these same "small groups" even back then were somehow consicting the "human wave/sea attacks" of "densely massed ranks of infantry". After confusing these real small group tactics with imaginary "seas" of people, the article here then goes on to also falsely pretend that the small groups are somehow a later invention.

But how "small" were these groups there (the Bakhmut-Soledar front) and doing what, exactly? On these real Wagner tactics (relying on, quote, "the assault infantry, which operates independently in small groups") in detail:

• The Ministry of Defense military agency ArmyINFORM 2 months earlier in March 2023: https://armyinform.com.ua/2023/03/07/taktyka-dij-zagoniv-vagnerivcziv-ne-rahuvatys-iz-vtratamy/ What's there? "Ukrainian officers of the Group for Generalizing Combat Experience of the Soledar Military District have carefully reviewed the participation of the Wagner PMC in military operations on the territory of Ukraine, in particular during the battles for Soledar and Bakhmut (...) information on conducting assault operations by small groups of infantry of the Wagner PMC needs to be brought to 100% of the personnel of the Ukrainian army in order to increase its readiness to effectively counter the invaders."

It phrases the subject of the report in such terms as "joint actions of small assault groups of 5–15 people", "constant attacks by small groups of light infantry", and "around the clock assault operations by small groups of infantry". In a one-line definition, "The attacks of the 'Wagner' are in the nature of constant 'reconnaissance by combat' of small groups of light infantry." If you don't understand this phrase, see reconnaissance-in-force.

This alone really should suffice already but I'll continue anyway. They of course never tried to engage in any "melee" (hand-to-hand, or "with shovels", or anything) combat, which practically never happens in this war in any situation, too. And so even the "close combat" [ближній бій] directly within the Ukrainian trenches while clearing them is described as slowly advancing while systematically throwing grenades into the sections ahead (their use of hand grenades in general was heavy, and so would try to sneak on the grenade-throw distance before an assault). The closest actions were suicide bombings also with grenades, on the verge of capture.

The report also explains how these assaults were generally supported by heavy weapons, and the article details the support, too (not just indirect by artillery, mortars, and automatic grenade launchers, but also directly by mobile tanks and such). But on the occasions when they were indeed unsupported, they were "relying only on the stealth" (more than usual, and they were sometimes guided by traitors from the local population). Also how their own drones were crucial to the Wagner tactics in different ways, etc.

Of course it does talk about the cannon fodder aspects, especially regarding the treatment of the inmates, as with the HIV infectees going first in pairs as they're "considered cannon meat even among their own people". Here it's actually the full phrase "cannon meat" [гарматним м’ясом], not just a single word "meat" alone as in "meat assault".

Finally, also defined there is the source of the infamous sensation of "armed only with shovels" (or "only with firearms and shovel" in a variant) in the Western game of telephone. As I already talked about, these were just field engineering groups, here are being called just that and also "anchoring groups (so-called diggers)" [групи закріплення (так звані копачі)], completely separate from the assault groups and just working alongside them. Here you have it in an official report. (The runners have also already existed, and they too are described, just not named.)

In case if you want me to first give some "cited rebuttals" by the Ukrainian military about the actual problems of the Korean forces (which was precisely their initial unfamiliarity with the drone warfare, but which they very quickly adapted to and then themselves "mastered", which is the word the Ukrainian military uses in their reporting, also specifically talking how entire the world outside of them and Russia doesn't know the modern warfare just like the North Koreans used to, but now they do know and are totally transforming their entire military based on their experience) I can give you these too. I mean not just random Ukrainian commanders talking in w more or less official capacity, like these I've already cited, but the actually official reporting like here about the Wagner tactics.

But if you don't need that, you can go and delete that whole completely misleading part of this article now. Which I mean everything about Russia-Ukraine

~2026-49665-19 (talk) 23:07, 28 September 2026 (UTC)