Talk:Arnold Ross

Article class rating

Article needs to be broken into sections before a "C" class, or higher, is given. Otherwise it needs to remain at "start". Maybe a section on "Early life", "Education", and "Career", etc. Pknkly (talk) 14:51, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Dissertation and wife's name

The sources conflict somewhat on the title of Ross's dissertation and the spelling of Bee's name. I went with what I thought was best verified, but if you find a better source, please do pass it along. czar ♔ 18:41, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

With the dissertation, I went with the one that was published later but appears to have been argued sooner (1929), which is also the one cited to be his dissertation by the footnoted source. With Bee, the current spelling is the one also used by OSU in his obituary, so I'm going to rule the one source that differs as an anomaly. czar ♔ 14:29, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Arnold Ross/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Bruce1ee (talk · contribs) 06:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I'll be reviewing this nomination – I'll follow up here with my findings in the next couple of days. —Bruce1ee^talk 06:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

I've done a little copyediting of the article, and a first pass through the text. These are my comments so far (more to come later). —Bruce1ee^talk 09:03, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• Lead

• "Ross returned to Chicago ...": When did he return? This should be dated.

1922, but not sure why it needs to be included in the lede. It should be clear that his travel to Chicago was associated with attending graduate school and elaboration is in the article. czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Other events in the lead are dated – I thought this one should be added for completeness, but if you'd rather leave it out, that's fine with me. —Bruce1ee^talk 10:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

• Early life

• "Ross was born ... in Chicago to Ukrainian-Jewish immigrants": Are the names of his parents known?

As far as the sources go, no czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Ross returned to Odesa, Ukraine with his mother": Was his mother originally from Odesa?

Sources don't say, though it was her family there, so I clarified czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ "... since there was no public library": I suggest "in Odesa" be added to the end of this sentence.
• "His geometry teacher ...": I take it Ross was attending school at this stage, perhaps the name of the school and when he started there should be added.

It was a makeshift school run during the famine—I didn't feel the details were worth including, and there is no explicit attendance record (remember these are poor peasants in a time of famine) czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• "Many universities were closed due to the famine ...": What famine is this? I think details should be provided here.

✓ Agreed czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• "but Odessa University reopened ...": When was it reopened?

Not in sources czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ "Ross left the USSR in 1922 ...": I suggest changing this to: "Ross left Odessa, now part of the USSR, in 1922"
• "After negotiating his way home...": What do you mean by "negotiating"?

Negotiating and bribing guards, didn't think it was worth elaborating czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ "Ross became Leonard Eugene Dickson's research assistant after graduating.": Was this after obtaining his B.S. degree? It's a little confusing saying this before the statement that said he had graduated.
• "He did not pay tuition after his first quarter": What "quarter" is this referring to?

It's how they referred to semesters czar ♔ 16:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• "In an interview": When was the interview?

2001, in the source. Only mentioned the interview to show that it wasn't fact-checked in a secondary source, but I didn't think more needed to be said czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ "In an interview, he said he advocated for a student, the first black woman in the South to receive a master's degree in mathematics, whose exception let the university begin to admit black students even though the idea was largely unpopular.": I suggest rewording to something like: "In an interview, he said he advocated for a student, who went on to become the first black woman in the South to receive a master's degree in mathematics. This exception led to the university admitting black students, even though the idea was largely unpopular at the time.
• Is this student's name known?

Not per the sources czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• Ross Mathematics Program

• Ross Program brochure: Is there a date for this brochure?

Wasn't dated, but I could add that it's "c. 2007" since that's when the book was published, though I think it's a bit of a stretch czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ I think the sentence starting "While at Notre Dame in 1947, Ross began a mathematics program ..." is too long, and should be split at "which expanded in 1957".
• "the act of personal discovery through observation and experimentation": this appears to be a statement made by Ross, and should be preceded with something like: "what he described as".

I didn't think this was necessary based on its usage, but I did it anyway czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• "in 1957 ... as Ross let high school students attend": But the original program in 1947 was for high school students. Am I missing something here?

1947 was for hs teachers, 1957 was for hs students czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I misread the 1947 sentence. —Bruce1ee^talk 10:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ "a vivid apprenticeship to a life of exploration": This is also a statement made by Ross, and should attributed to him.

Again not sure why it needs to be cited this way when it is describing his intentions, but done czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• ✓ "and is considered America's 'most rigorous number theory program'." Considered by whom?

Generally considered, but I gave it further attribution czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

• "a great eagerness to learn": Who made this statement?

The source's author—should be fine to quote, no? Says it better than I could rephrase. czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

There's no problem with the quote, but according to the MOS, it should be attributed, in this case, to Shapiro (see MOS:QUOTE#Attribution). —Bruce1ee^talk 10:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

That section says that only a full sentence quote must be attributed. Since it's a fragment, it's clear that it is using the ref's language czar ♔ 14:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm still not sure about this one. WP:INTEXT states that "In-text attribution should be used with direct speech (a source's words between quotation marks or as a block quotation)", but as MOS:QUOTE#Attribution seems to suggest that in-text attribution is only necessary for full sentence quotes (as long as there is an in-line citation), I'll leave it up to you. —Bruce1ee^talk 10:05, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

• "in the 1964 summer", "in the summers 1975–1978": See WP:SEASON for use of seasons.

I'm already familiar with the guideline—since the program is referenced as a "summer program" throughout the article, the mentioned usage is consistent, though not the MoS's ideal. Not sure how else "summer program" could be put without losing its meaning, so I'd argue that it has seasonal reference. czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

His programs were called "summer programs", that's fine as it is, but where "summer" is used on its own, technically it should be qualified with something like "US summer". But perhaps it's ok as it is as it's clear this is all taking place in the US. —Bruce1ee^talk 10:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

• Retirement and death

• How about moving his honors and awards into a separate, bulleted section?

Thought it made more sense in prose. I could, if you think it must czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

It was just a suggestion. It's fine as it is. —Bruce1ee^talk 10:27, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

• Legacy

• "He had run every summer program from 1957 to 2000": This should refer to his summer programs, not all summer programs.

I think this is clear in its context, but okay, done czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Thanks for your help! czar ♔ 16:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for all your changes – I've responded to some of your replies above. This is an interesting article, and I see you've done quite a bit of work on it, well done! I still need to do a final proof read and check the sources, although at first glance they all seem fine. Just one suggestion about the lead: perhaps it could be expanded a bit to list a few of the awards he received, and the legacy he left behind. —Bruce1ee^talk 10:35, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

Good idea—I've expanded the lede with more legacy czar ♔ 14:24, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

The referencing and sources all appear fine. I'm leaving the quote with no in-text attribution as is because of the lack of clarity at MOS:QUOTE#Attribution and WP:INTEXT as to whether it should be in-text attributed (see above). Otherwise everything else seems fine, and I've promoted the article to GA. Thank you for all your hard work on it. —Bruce1ee^talk 07:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

And thank you for the attention and patience! czar ♔ 07:51, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Checklist

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	No Close paraphrasing/copyright violations found.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, list incorporation, and table accessibility.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	I've assumed good faith for two offline sources: Wissner-Gross and Pohst.
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	All images appear to be correctly tagged; no non-free content used.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, have suitable captions, and have alt text.
	7. Overall assessment.	Promoted to GA.